Should Buffy Apologize some more? (some ranting included)

[avrelia]

I wanted to share my recent annoyance with you, guys. ;)

It is not exactly recent, but it came back to life after the last discussion in fer1213' LJ. First of all, I agreed with Fer’s post absolutely, but not with several comments to it. Some commenters expressed an opinion, popular at one part of the fandom – that is, that Buffy didn’t own all bad things she did to Spike, never apologized publicly, never was properly chastised for everything she did. So, she shouldn’t be forgiven and upheld as a proper heroine, and obviously she's not deserving of the Spike’s love.

And this attitude bugs me a lot.

I generalize here – not all these sentiments and not in this exact wording were expressed in the comments to Fer’s post, but all of them exist and I encountered them here and there.

I actually get where some of it comes from the series – Buffy doesn’t say in plain English everything we wanted her to say, but…

1.How did she not own her actions?

She admits that she behaved like a monster - and not to the Holden, but to herself, which is a huge thing. (Holden is a good therapist here – making her do all the work herself)

She admits using Spike several times – to Spike. Very good of her.

2.She doesn’t tell her friends or write about her relationship with Spike in Sunnydale Herald.
Yes. But why would she?
Why would anyone? Where does this taste for the public repentance come from? Dostoevsky? (yes, that’s right, but his characters are not exactly examples of mental health.)

I think Buffy’s relationships with friends were very true to life (mine, anyway), and no matter how much she loves them some things are not for them. She told it to whom it mattered.

3.Buffy can be terse and quippy, but eloquent in expressing her feelings she is not. Especially in the later seasons. She acts instead. And her (tiring eve for me) refrain “He has a soul now!” was the inability to express just how much it means to her. I can talk more on it, but other people said it better already. But I can't imagine a long remorseful monologue from Buffy about how she was mean and cold, and I don't want to. Her actions in s7 says a lot to me.

4.Forgiveness is not given when it is deserved, but when it is needed. (s2 Angelus episode, same time same place, the whole series, basically.)

I am ranting, hence the friendslocking this entry.

I feel better already. But sometimes I just wonder what makes people to have this need to see Buffy being chastised?

Comments

[dtissagirl.livejournal.com]

ITA. Completely. Buffy's actions in S7 speak louder than any apology she could have ever made. And Spike never indicated he wanted her to apologize to him. Whatever wrong she might have done him, he forgave her for it. And she forgave him right back. :)

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

For all the talk about redemption, forgiveness was a big part of the season 7 theme. It was there with the Scoobies, and it was there with Buffy and Spike - they forgive each other, and no public apology was needed.

[superplin.livejournal.com]

::pets you::

You already know what I think about the topic, so I'll not bore you with more of it. There are lots of stories/essays/rants/sites I can't read because of this very issue, though. Sigh.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I know, I just wanted to vent in the company of friends who get it. ;)

It is the idea of public apology that drives me mad the more I think about it.

::clings to friends::

[minim_calibre]

It's a mindset I've never understood. They both realized they'd done some horrific things to each other, and that the way things had stood between them in S6 was toxic. Neither of them went in much for statements of apology, because actions speak louder than words.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

And as far as I remember Spike said it in "Beneath You" : I can't say sorry. - and he was right, the words wouldn't mean much without the action; action without the words is harder to decypher, but it is here.

[minim_calibre]

Totally.

At some point, probably in comments to someone else, so I don't have it available, I went through and noted Buffy's attitude towards verbal apologies for massive transgressions, and throughout the show, she's internally consistant in that she neither wants (see: her interactions with Faith in Sanctuary) nor offers the words, because that's all they are: words.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

throughout the show, she's internally consistant in that she neither wants (see: her interactions with Faith in Sanctuary) nor offers the words, because that's all they are: words.

Exactly. And by her very nature, Buffy is a woman of actions, therefore her actions should be believed above any words that could or would be spoken.

[minim_calibre]

BTW, I read your original post, and just wanted to say "word."

I'd have said it in the comments there, but have long since learned NOT to go into this particular subject outside of a handful of places--it just gets me into trouble. My thoughts when first watching S6 were, "Wow. That's some serious mutually assured destruction we've got there. Hot, but good for no one in the long run." It always baffles me when it's read as a one-sided use/abuse situation, on either side of the fence.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

It always baffles me when it's read as a one-sided use/abuse situation, on either side of the fence.

My turn to "word" you. ;)

I completely understand not commenting on a post like that. I think I'm a little insane or asking for some serious trouble by not locking certain ranty things, but I have two people in particular who read my LJ and don't have LJs of their own and I like to know their opinions. Plus there's that whole I'm an opinionated bee-yotch and don't care who knows it thing...

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I hate to drop the m word but there are many times I've thought it - internalized misogyny.

I'll admit I had a hard time connecting with Buffy in s7 but some fans have issues that clearly stem from a place outside the text.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Maybe you are right, I can’t say for people I don’t know, but maybe it is internalized misogyny. I don't remember anyone asking Wesley to apologize publicly for keeping Justine in the closet, etc.

Buffy is not exactly infallible, nor she resolved all her issues satisfactorily, but public apology? That’s just weird.

[minim_calibre]

Maybe you are right, I can’t say for people I don’t know, but maybe it is internalized misogyny. I don't remember anyone asking Wesley to apologize publicly for keeping Justine in the closet, etc.

Perhaps it's socialized gender assumptions? I do see a lot of hypocritical commentary, where the understood, unstated apology is fine, even admirable, for Wesley (or Spike, or Angel), but not for a female character in a similar situation.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

I absolutely buy the internalized misogyny theory. What started my initial rant was a certain story that I saw your latest comment on (and I completely agree with your assessment, btw). Buffy being besting, being subjugated, allowing herself to be submissive--that is definitely not the Buffy I ever saw onscreen. I've always believe that Spike and Buffy are equals in every way. They can both be extremely childish. They can both be hurtful, physically and through their words. And for both of them, their actions MEAN something, more than their words ever could. And they understand each other better than anyone else does.

Buffy doesn't need to apologize or clarify her actions to her friends or anyone else besides Spike--and he already knows. Did Angel prostrate himself for basically mind-raping his friends? Did Wes make a speech about how wrong he was for taking Connor? Why would they get free passes and Buffy shouldn't?

Sorry for going off here, but you've hit on something that's bothered me endlessly, but I was never confident enough to put a label on it.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

By "free passes", I mean forgiveness without having to do penance.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I'm a huge fan of her writing, but there are certain themes and behaviours that keep coming up. When she's writing an AU it's easier to accept but lately I'm really not understanding the story on a basic level - like you I don't think Buffy has that much to atone for, and if she does Spike more than matches her. I think also the comments really set me off - things that get hailed as a meeting of equals seem very obviously to me a case of Buffy being put down and a way to demonstrate Spike's superiority in all things. It's disturbing and I'm very glad you said the things you did in your journal.

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

I think also the comments really set me off - things that get hailed as a meeting of equals seem very obviously to me a case of Buffy being put down and a way to demonstrate Spike's superiority in all things.

This is exactly the problem I'm having, and that's why I haven't been commenting over there much. I think she's an incredible writer (and the sex is very hot), and I don't want to seem like I'm picking a fight in her lj. I've seen some of the commenters over there take disagreement very personally, and I don't want to step all over their happiness for the story.

I don't see a meeting of equals either. In fact, the thing that's bothering me in the latest chapter is the literal silencing of Buffy during sex -- Spike either shushing her when she tries to talk, or literally putting his hand over her mouth until he wants her hear her. It's a little thing, but taken together with everything else it's enough to bother me. I don't recognize that Spike and Buffy.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Much agreeage! I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in my reading of the story.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

You are absolutely not alone. I'm reduced to skimming her chapters (though, like a car crash, I can't look away altogether) because of the exact things salieri says. No one silences Buffy! Heh.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

No one silences Buffy!

And especially Spike who *lives* to have her talk to him. It's...okay, I get that she feels there's a cool message to that and that it's a dark, edgy topic to explore...it's just that it doesn't work at all with these particular characters. Spike would never want a submissive Buffy, and he sure as hell would never want to shut her up during sex. That goes against everything we know about the character. Which is why I'm not getting why people are so in love with him here. I mean, if this is the kind of male character that does it for them, then I'm not sure how they ever became Spike fans. Although, I do get why some of them are so bitter with how the show turned out, because if this is what they wanted? They were never going to get their version of Spike onscreen.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

Spike would never want a submissive Buffy, and he sure as hell would never want to shut her up during sex.

Right. Wildly out of character. And not a Spike *I* ever wanted to see.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Poor Avrelia! We're turning her journal into a fanfic discussion group.

It's...okay, I get that she feels there's a cool message to that and that it's a dark, edgy topic to explore...it's just that it doesn't work at all with these particular characters.

I'm not even sure she's seeing it as dark and edgy. Some of her reactions to comments seem to suggest that she's seeing these developments as positive which genuinely boggles my mind. Sometimes it feels like I'm reading an old skool bodice-ripper romance written as literary fiction. Essentially Buffy is fine as long as Spike is the one in control - very much not the characters, and frankly not that interesting.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm coming at this one sort of blind. I stopped reading at Chapter 10 and just now read the last two chapters after reading this discussion, so I'm not real clear on what her goal is with this story. I think I've figured out though that my issues with this fic all tie back to the fact that I was happy with canon, and this feels almost like a more highbrow version of some of those "Here's how S6 would've gone if Buffy weren't such a bitch! Plz revu!!11" fics. I don't buy into the submissive Spike she's saying existed in S6. I don't buy into the Buffy who wasn't emotionally invested in S6 Spuffy that she sees. I don't buy into the idea that soulless Spike was capable of making the same choices as souled Spike. And so, of course, I'm not going to buy into a fic that corrects all these assumptions.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Hee! Don't worry, I enjoy reading this discussion much more than the fic in question. ;)

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

I think she's an incredibly gifted writer. No doubt about that. But the characters she's writing are in no way Spike and Buffy to me. And the comments about them being absolute equals--especially in the last two chapters of this story--are just baffling to me.

It's disturbing and I'm very glad you said the things you did in your journal.

Thanks. I appreciate that a lot.

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to figure out this Buffy stuff myself, and I've been wondering about the double-standard -- why does Buffy get blamed for so much that Angel/Spike get away with? I don't know if it's a vamp/human issue or a gender issue. Maybe it's because, since most of the fandom is female, we tend to hold Buffy to a higher standard? I've noticed that a lot of women act that way. Female solidarity can be kind of a myth -- we can be harder on each other than on men.

I agree with you that this desire to see Buffy publicly humiliated and repentant is strange and off-putting. Why do people want this? Is it because women are somehow supposed to be nurturing, and Buffy doesn't exhibit that? It's the scarlet letter all over again, with the overtones of misogyny and double standard. I think there are some fans who would have liked to have seen a Dead Man's Party-type episode at least once per season, with Buffy humiliated and being taken to task by her "righteous" friends. Count me out.

(I have to be honest and say that I actually do like that episode, by the way. I find it easy to sympathize with pretty much everyone in it. Well, with Buffy and Willow, at least. Xander can bite me.)

And her (tiring eve for me) refrain “He has a soul now!” was the inability to express just how much it means to her.

I agree. Her actions in S7 spoke volumes to me. And that's what I don't get about some of these post-series fics that have Buffy going through cycles of remorse and repentance in front of Spike. What I saw was that by the end of S7, Buffy and Spike had established a relationship with mutual trust and love. Not that they were perfect, but I think they'd managed to work through a lot of their issues, both separately and together. I saw a Buffy who had forgiven both Spike and herself. I saw a Spike who accepted and loved Buffy for who she was, warts and all. I didn't see a Spike who was nursing hidden grudges and resentments, and I didn't see that in AtS S5 either. Of course, that kind of thing can still exist and come to light later on, but it would take a lot to convince me.

What bothers me is that so many fans seem to see this as a necessary thing: Buffy has to experience exactly what Spike did in S6 -- the pain, the humiliation, the obsessive love for someone else -- in order to have any type of relationship with him. Which is complete bullshit, in my opinion, and it cheapens how much their relationship grew in S7. Since when is love about payback and revenge? Because this is what it really is -- the fans getting revenge on Buffy through Spike, and that pisses me off.

Heh. And I'm having Fic Issues again, can you tell? ;) Not so much with the fic itself, but with some of the comments to it. I'm having to sit on my hands to keep from commenting.

[skylee.livejournal.com]

I am actually really interested in your thoughts on Empty Places, since it's my least favourite episode of the whole series - I just cannot understand their action in kicking Buffy out of her own house. If you can make me like the episode (which I do want to!), please help. ;-)

And avreila, yep, completely agree with what you said. I've read so many fanfic where Buffy apologises to Spike for never apologising and making it up to him for her baaaad behaviour in S6. I don't know, I just never even thought about it when I watched S7. Spike obviously doesn't feel that way either.

[skylee.livejournal.com]

Eh, I see how that you're referring to Dead Man's Party not Empty Places, heh! Sorry. *g*

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

What bothers me is that so many fans seem to see this as a necessary thing: Buffy has to experience exactly what Spike did in S6 -- the pain, the humiliation, the obsessive love for someone else -- in order to have any type of relationship with him. Which is complete bullshit, in my opinion, and it cheapens how much their relationship grew in S7. Since when is love about payback and revenge? Because this is what it really is -- the fans getting revenge on Buffy through Spike, and that pisses me off.

I don't normally say this, but WORD!!!!

[elisi]

Buffy has to experience exactly what Spike did in S6 -- the pain, the humiliation, the obsessive love for someone else -- in order to have any type of relationship with him.

Y'know, it strikes me that this was pretty much what she went through with Angelus in S2 - why the heck do people want a repeat of that?

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Hee, I was so much enjoying the discussion that I forgot I didn't answer the comments myself. ;)

Also, how sad it is that I can't use LJ at work? I have to be working, can you imagine?

Maybe it's because, since most of the fandom is female, we tend to hold Buffy to a higher standard? I've noticed that a lot of women act that way. Female solidarity can be kind of a myth -- we can be harder on each other than on men.

Well, all generalizations are a myth of sorts – female solidarity and female adversity, but Buffy is hold to an impossible standard – she should be either a cardboard squicky-clean hero, or a fallen hero, but she can’t just be – true to her character, with all her issues and quirks, and still be a hero.

What bothers me is that so many fans seem to see this as a necessary thing: Buffy has to experience exactly what Spike did in S6 -- the pain, the humiliation, the obsessive love for someone else -- in order to have any type of relationship with him.

Wah! It makes me sick. Really, especially that people are cheering to it. So many shades of wrong it here.

And vigorous “Yes” to everything you said here.

[ascian3.livejournal.com]

This is actually a rather sensitive issue for me - I'm not in favor of apologies for truly important offences. I ranted about this a few times long ago, but on the whole I try to avoid it, because it's really more about my issues than the text.

In general, though, I think actions speak much louder than words. Apologies are words. If you did something terribly wrong, no words will change it. If you're truly sorry - *especially* if you're truly sorry - all you can do is live differently. Make better choices.

I actually also think that there's a sense in which apologising to someone you've truly wronged puts pressure on them to forgive you. There's a sense in which that can be self-serving - done to clear the conscience of the guilty party, and that's especially bad when it's a repeat offence, or something that goes beyond forgiveness (like, for example, sexual assault.) You go on, or you don't. You part ways or you make new ones. You can't *ever* go back.

Now you've heard my issues. ;-) But, in short, I very much agree with your thoughts about Buffy.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of Oz telling Willow in season 3 (during the one episode he managed to remain angry) that she wasn't apologizing for him, she wanted to talk so she'd feel better.

Yes, Buffy truly sucks at expressing her feelings verbally at times. But she expresses them through actions, which I much prefer. The fact that she and Spike managed to forgive each other in season 7, and that she (who was far more paranoid about these things, and with reason if you look at her romantic history) managed is fantastic. As for the words she does say - I find "I believe in you" far better than any public apology etc., especially since her actions afterwards back up she meant just what she said.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

I agree with you completely here. Especially about apologies putting pressure on someone else to forgive you. Apologies are often about assuaging your own conscience more than "fixing" whatever you've done. I think there's a reason for the saying "actions speak louder than words".

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Guh! Can I answer any later? I guess, I could.

Anyway, I agree with you – I can see the value in the verbal apology, but together with the appropriate action, and not instead of it. If verbal apology replaces actual changes - it looks like a medieval-type indulgence – bought for money clearance form the sins, or, yes, in certain cases places the burden onto the person who may bestow the forgiveness.

The penance before the whole world, especially, seems weird and affected, and not that healthy choice for everyone involved.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

I had a mini discussion with someone within that post about how she likes fics in which Buffy learns. I agree with that because learning is growing. But I don't think that Buffy needs to learn how horrible she was to Spike because she already knows that. And he knows how horrible he was to her. And like we've both said, S7 was about them forgiving and TRUSTING each other, which I think was HUGE for Buffy, especially since she specifically told him in "Seeing Red" that she could never trust him enough for it to be love. Obviously, that trust is there in spades in S7, which is just another reason why I believe her when she says she loves him at the end of "Chosen".

In other words, I completely agree with you. :)

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Learning in general is good, and Buffy obviously can use some, but that kind of learning is just too vicious and abusive to wish n anyone.

[elisi]

I ::heart:: this post! When it comes to Buffy, actions always speak louder than words. And looking at her behavior towards Spike in S7 tells me everything I need to know. (Also see icon!)

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

And looking at her behavior towards Spike in S7 tells me everything I need to know.

Me too. ::goes to see some s7::