My theory about becoming a Slayer and the spell in “Chosen”

[avrelia]

As everybody else after “Chosen” I was thinking about the spell that activated the Slayers, its possible consequences, and how it will work in the long term. Slowly a theory emerged. It is quite possibly wrong, and I am not sure if it works on all levels, but it works for me on mystical and metaphorical levels. I was trying to tidy it up and make it all clear and comprehensible, but since it took me too long time without much positive result, I decided to post it here for a test drive, and hope for some reasonable suggestions.



[Quotes are from Buffyverse Dialogue Database and Buffyworld.com]

The operational word for me was choice.

I believe this is important. Choice. Free will. Being the Chosen one vs. Making one’s own choices. That is what all BtVS was about. Well, one of the things BtVS was about.
How’s it can come into the play with the activation of all potentials in the world?

Let’s see what is happening.

The girl in the Hellmouth came there to fight evil, they know the score, their choice is clear. Who else we get to see?

EXT. BASEBALL DIAMOND - DAY
A girl stands at the plate staring at the pitcher, waiting to bat. She looks a little nervous.

INT. HIGH SCHOOL HALLWAY - DAY
A young woman breathes heavily as she leans on her locker for support.

INT. LIVING ROOM - DAY
A young woman is lying across the floor, having fallen out of her chair.

INT. DINING ROOM - DAY
In a Japanese-style dining room, a young woman stands up at family dinner.

INT. BASEMENT - DAY
A young woman grabs the wrist of a man who's trying to slap her face, preventing him.

EXT. BASEBALL DIAMOND - DAY
The girl at the plate changes from nervous to confident, smiling as she waits for the pitch.

So the “softball girl”, and “the trailer park girl” were in the middle of something that demanded their reaction – one way or another, others seemed to be just living their lives, without anything meaningful outside.

Let’s look now at Buffy’s words. She gave too many speeches, so our attention isn’t as focused, but let’s try again:

I hate this. I hate being here. I hate that you have to be here. I hate that there’s evil and that I was chosen to fight it. I wish a whole lot of the time that I hadn’t been. I know a lot of you wish I hadn’t been, either. But this isn’t about wishes. This is about choices.

She lived and died, and lived again through it, and came to terms with being chosen – her power, her duties, her gift. Faith too, more or less. They had their own ways of dealing with it, they both accepted what power gives them, good and bad. But it hasn’t been an easy ride. And here are these girls – who have something in them the same power, something that lies dormant now – until… or forever. What are their life prospects? Anya put it best in Potential:

Well, it is a mixed bag, you know. If she gets to be the slayer, then her life is short and brutal. And if she doesn't, then it smells of unfulfilled potential.

Because - remember the rules: one girl in all the world, a Chosen One, one born with the strength and skill to hunt the vampires...
Only there are two of them now, which means the rules are not set in stone.

The situation seems dire. The life of potential, it appears, gets to be short in any way. Every hour of waiting adds to strength of the “evil forces”, and yet what can they do but wait for their power to come? Or for the Slayer (whether Buffy or Faith) to save them. So they are waiting.

It’s true, none of you have the power that Faith and I do. So here’s the part where you make a choice.

Now we have a scythe (it doesn’t actually look like one, but it makes possible silly jokes and cool death imagery). Something in it calls to slayers – Buffy and Faith, so through Willow’s spell it reaches to that dormant part in the potentials, and wakes it up.

That simple? Nope.

Because here is the second part of the Buffy’s speech, and she asks to make a choice.

So here’s the part where you make a choice. What if you could have that power… now? In every generation one Slayer is born because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule. They were powerful men. (She points at Willow, who smiles nervously.) This woman is more powerful than all of them combined. So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power. Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to change our destiny. From now on, every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a Slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up. Slayers… every one of us. Make your choice.

What choice?

Are you ready to be strong?

And here is my hypothesis:

It is the choice to be strong – to accept this power, to become a slayer. Girls are not stuffed with the power whether they wanted it or not, they are offered a possibility, and it is up to them to accept it, to make a choice out of free will. And this is the whole world of difference with the shadow men. Only those who have chosen it become slayers. And it was not a simultaneous event, either: it is a process, it is still happening.

Willow: Slayers are awakening everywhere.

Let’s look at the new Slayers again.

The softball girl and the trailer park girl have made their choices, the change in them is the most visible, and it didn’t come out of nowhere. If the girl didn’t choose to block the blow, special powers wouldn’t help. The girls in the hellmouth also made their choice, but what about others? I don’t know what was going on in their lives at that moment. Our breaking-through isn’t always visible from the outside. I think they’ve made their choice, too, but I really have no proof.

So, is it all good? It never is. Look at Dana.

Several months ago her condition changed. Increasing levels of agitation accompanied by explosive outbursts of inhuman strength.

When she speaks for herself, not repeating other slayers’ words, she talks about strength:

Yellows make you weak. Not weak anymore.

Can't hurt me anymore.

Not weak. Can't touch me anymore.

Can't hurt me. Not weak anymore.

She didn’t want to be weak anymore, she made her own choice, as well.

Some choices were rushed, some were made too late, some girls wouldn’t be able to handle the power at all, some wouldn’t want the corresponding responsibilities, some would wish they didn’t make that choice. There are many variants how it can and will go wrong. All magical gifts are twofold, power is moreso.

But just because the power is hard to handle, should we be powerless?

But just because we cannot foresee all consequences of our choices, should we reject the right to make a choice?

Comments

[superplin.livejournal.com]

I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree.
(Ooh, look, I can so be concise!) ;>

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I feel very flattered that you absolutely agree and cannot add anything, though I was kind of hoping that someone would catch possible inconsistencies in my theory. Well, I guess, I can take it that there aren't any. Which is good. :)

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

It is the choice to be strong – to accept this power, to become a slayer. Girls are not stuffed with the power whether they wanted it or not, they are offered a possibility, and it is up to them to accept it, to make a choice out of free will. And this is the whole world of difference with the shadow men. Only those who have chosen it become slayers. And it was not a simultaneous event, either: it is a process, it is still happening.

I can not begin to express how much I love this theory. It works, and I now adopt it myself :)

::smooch::

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I am very glad that it makes sense for you, too. There were so many people who saw no difference between Buffy's idea and the shadow men's actions, that I had to find a logical (more or less) proof to my gut feeling that Buffy got it right.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Wow-- very, very cool, Avrelia; your thoughts answer the question I have been mulling over in my head: What is the difference between the Shadow Men's transfer and the one Buffy initiated for all Potentials?
This makes total and complete sense and shall from now on be canon!

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

The sense-making me is very proud. I tried to play from the emphasis on “choice” that seemed very strong in this episode – and felt right to me. Of course, there isn’t much canon to prove it one way or the other.

The crazy thing – now I am tempted to view it from the position of contract law – in terms of the offer and the acceptance of the offer, then I begin to wonder, which contract law I have in mind, then I think that the offer wasn’t clear, etc, then my mind goes in a completely wrong direction. Jurisprudence is a disease.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

What choice?

Is there a choice at all? Missing among the "empowerment" and speeches about choice, is the part where Buffy sought input or vetted anything. Missing is the part where we saw a Potential express her own opinion about the choice. There is tremendous societal pressure placed upon these girls by Buffy such that they, in effect, do not have a choice. Missing, is a part where we see these girls acknowledge a choice by, at any point, considering or expressing the idea that they have any alternative.

The softball girl and the trailer park girl have made their choices, the change in them is the most visible, and it didn’t come out of nowhere. If the girl didn’t choose to block the blow, special powers wouldn’t help.

But of course, to block a blow. To hit a softball, special powers are handy - but unnecessary. Unfortunatley, in "Chosen" - the only ones we see display this power are the girls that were already "Chosen" to have "Potential" to be slayers.

Buffy lives in a world, where these girls with potential, are a tiny minority. What does she have to offer for all of those young girls who aren't "Chosen", aren't special. Those girls who are now refugees, because their families fled Sunnydale earlier. When do they stand up?

Actually they don't. They'll still be dependent upon Buffy et al to stand up for them, because Buffy had no awareness of them... did not seek to offer them the tools to stand up themselves. Because they don't have potential.

I'm not saying that what Buffy did was wrong. I do think, however, that it's not nearly as good or empowering as advertised. What she's done, is more akin to a bureacratic reform, than societal. In essence, what was once a dictatorship of two slayers, has become a politburo of many. The potentials were already part of the elite, part of the same class Buffy was, and now they are more equal within that class. But the relationship of the Slayer toward the non-slayer society is unchanged.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Is there a choice at all? Missing among the "empowerment" and speeches about choice, is the part where Buffy sought input or vetted anything. Missing is the part where we saw a Potential express her own opinion about the choice. There is tremendous societal pressure placed upon these girls by Buffy such that they, in effect, do not have a choice. Missing, is a part where we see these girls acknowledge a choice by, at any point, considering or expressing the idea that they have any alternative.

Well, no. There's tremendous pressure placed on these girls by all the ubervamps and demons trying to kill them. They're stuck in the fight whether they like it or not; their only "choice" is whether to accept a weapon or run away. (And we've seen how well running away worked.) In this way, the Slayers metaphorically represent all kids (esp. all girls) on the cusp of adulthood, the way Buffy and her friends represented all kids in high school: the Slayers don't actually get to choose power anymore than anyone gets to choose whether she'll grow older or whether she'll face challenges and dangers. She just gets to choose what dangers she'll acknowledge and prepare for, and which weapons she'll use.

avrella's theory about acceptance is mine as well, but I have to acknowledge it as a pleasant fanwank without either support or contradiction textually.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I have to acknowledge it as a pleasant fanwank without either support or contradiction textually.

I understand. It's a bit different for me, because I don't approach this from a "gender studies" perspective, but rather from a "Public Policy" perspective. Looking at "Chosen" in terms of Democratic Governance theories, it reads far more like a bureacratic realignment. Certainly, it's dramatic and empowering for the Potential, who is no longer such a subclass within that Governing Structure.

But it's hard for me to see this a great victory. She's strengthened and realigned the bureacracy, certainly. But if the core mission was to defend the community against supernatural, it's hard to see how she serviced that mission. What with the refugee crisis and all.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

Did she...did she create the refugee crisis? I have to admit that I could be wrong in my understanding that she was simply continuing to stand her ground and reacting to events the FE was driving, and that she actually created the crisis that drove everyone out of town. I mean, I could only sit through most of that dreck in fast-forward, and once. I can't even remember *why* people were getting out of town; like, a feeling of impending doom that didn't prevent kids from going to the Bronze, is the best I can recall.

But if she didn't manufacture the crisis, I don't see that Buffy's failure to find some way to make every girl in the whole world regardless of their "line" a Slayer as a particular failure on her part. I mean, there was a thing they could do, so they did it, and that they didn't do a thing that I...am not sure they *could've* done, well, I don't see how it's relevant. Making more Slayers should be a good thing; if even half of them want to pursue that calling, even part-time, hey, it'll be a help. A few more dead vamps/demons never hurt anyone. Heck, forget all the girls in the world. There are people who aren't girls. Why can't everybody be a Slayer? Then we'll alllllllll be on a level playing field. Well, terrific, but I'm not sure Willow has time to come up with a spell to turn everyone into Slayers, but she does have an idea for taking this here *shudder* magical axe we just discovered and using it to release the potential Slayerness in girls who already have it. Better'n nothing.

Of course, I've always viewed it as a release of natural existing power unnaturally bound rather than a forced imposition of something unnatural upon the unwilling/unasked, since simply having the power doesn't force a person to participate in the mission. I mean, it did when there was only one Slayer at a time; guilt/duty/etc. was shoved onto her forcing her to participate whether she wanted to or not. But now there are plenty who can, so the ones who just don't want to can use their powers to remove particularly difficult jar lids, etc. The mission and the abilities are now separate.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

And of course we must not forget the single most important reason Buffy had to "free" all the Potentials and make them Slayers; the franchise needed to stay open. The one girl in all the world became hot chicks with superpowers. That truly is the driving force, IMO, philosophy and feminism be damned. It was a smart idea to keep open the possibility of future series, comics set in the present, etc., w/o the driving need to deal with the "one girl" concept and Buffy, it's embodiment.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

My problem, is ultimately the aristocratic and anti-democratic direction Whedon takes the premise. (Actually, it's more Leninist than Aristocratic, though - for the excluded, both governing forms are functionally similar in the end.) The way the general population (male and female) is defined out of the halls of power.

It's a net win that there are more slayers than before. But fundamentally, it's troubling. Imagine if, suddenly, 400,000 cops miraculously are empowered in some city. Save that there's no Internal Affairs Division. No civilian authority or oversight. From a governance/society, that's the concern. Civilians are just as excluded from the corridor of power as they were twenty years prior. Except for the expanded numbers of civilians that will have a new slayer in their nuclear family or familial unit.

That's what bugged me. That the relation of the slayer to the watcher bureaucracy had changed (which is good) but that the relation of the bureaucracy to non-slayer society was no different. Presuming one is supposed to hold value to the society existing outside ones living room. (Which is a questionable assumption in S7 BtVS.)

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

Save that there's no Internal Affairs Division. No civilian authority or oversight. From a governance/society, that's the concern. Civilians are just as excluded from the corridor of power as they were twenty years prior.

No, but I didn't think that there was necessarily time to plan out a new world order at that particular moment. I suppose I still consider the number of activated Slayers to make up a relatively small portion of the population; I mean, they'd found all they *could* find, supposedly, and there were perhaps 50 girls total in and around the house over the last half of the season? A few hundred worldwide, maybe a thousand, tops, had been my feeling. So...I guess I'm not seeing a "corridor of power" from which humans are excluded. Unless and until the Slayer Army decides its job is to step outside of the traditional Slayer duties and start influencing world government or something. Honestly, we have no idea how many pies the WC had their thumbs in, what they were up to. It seems to me more like a loose voluntary network has been created. If Slayers opt in, there's support, there's training, they're not left isolated and alone if they don't want to be, but Buffy and her friends seem to be largely...vacationing right now. And the actual day to day ops of the Slayers who have chosen to reside in England, which since Giles wants to live there I suppose makes it still Watchers HQ, seem to be being run by two humans. Two male humans.

What are the Slayers and their human associates governing, other than the killing of vampires and evil demons, and their own when one of them becomes problematic a la Dana? What halls of power are humans being denied their rightful place within? Slayers don't seem to be interfering in any other hall of power, at least at this point, but sticking to their traditional role. I suppose a group of superpowered humans of either gender could, if they wished, begin a plan to take over world government, but...well, see above about no more than 1000 Slayers. I don't think there are enough Slayers, or ever will be, to enable them to become the Master Race or something.

What relationship do you imagine existing between slayers and non-slayer society? I mean, what *immediate* relationship that could've been achieved over the course of late S7 BtVS/S5 AtS? Or could've been articulated as a goal, at the least? I suppose ideally all humans would be forced to deal with the reality of what goes on around them; that demons exist, that their religious faiths are invalidated, etc. That would certainly enable them to defend themselves more ably against invading demons. But..is that what you're asking them to do? Force a vanilla world to de-mundane itself? I don't think that's a bad goal overall...obviously there's a version of the future Buffyverse in which the world has undergone a forced de-mundanization - the Fray series.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I didn't think that there was necessarily time to plan out a new world order at that particular moment.

Certainly, that's true. But the very nature of the battle against the FE was one that excluded.

What are the Slayers and their human associates governing, other than the killing of vampires and evil demons, and their own when one of them becomes problematic a la Dana?

They're governing the defense of civil/human society against the supernatural forces aimed at destroying civil society. And they're doing that without any real representation from the society that they aim to defend. Which is a problem. Pardon the pun, but Society has a large stake in what Buffy does. Society (or society's representatives) should have some involvement. I'd rather be policed by cops that answer to me and my elected representatives, than by a self-appointed militia. No matter how well intentioned the particular individuals might be.

In a season where the message is "everything's connected" it's especially a problem. I can imagine that, as a writer, its not something Whedon would think about. Because writing isn't really a democratic process - though it seems it was fairly democratic among his own inner circle of writers. The audience is very distant - it's not really a consituency the writer is particularly responsible to.

Whereas, yeah - being a slayer is actually a public service position where she's got a constituency. Just as the Fire Department and Police Department are. Which means society ought to be supporting them more, and they ought to be more responsible to society. They ought to be connected.

That would certainly enable them to defend themselves more ably against invading demons. But..is that what you're asking them to do? Force a vanilla world to de-mundane itself?

In it's entirety, not really. But, from a representative democracy standpoint, we'd look for representatives of society, who have stakes in society, to be involved in society's defense. If we'd seen a Sunndyale Hospital Nurse being a nurse to the scoobies. If they'd had a firefighter help clear people out of town... If they'd had others invovled....

There are plenty of things our Public Servants do that the general population isn't aware of - unless you want to go out and do a lot of research. Do we know exactly what the firefighters, police or coast guard do? But we fund them, and we also have oversight. It keeps them connected to society - so if a Firefighter gets hurt in the line of duty, we can take care of them and be responsible for them. And society's representatives have oversights to help make sure that the firefighter does the job in a way that serves society's needs.

Without that connection, it's all too easy to forget why people are fighting in the first place. To reduce it simply to an expression of power, without any purpose.

It's easy for people with power to use that for their own ends. The end of S7 shows a scenario where, if you don't like society, you can just ignore it until it goes away. And this isn't really shown to be a particular problem or concern - even though it runs counter to the "everybody is connected" aspect of the story - where Buffy and her friends are not supposed to be ignoring each other. And it's a contradiction that's always going to bug me.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

There are plenty of things our Public Servants do that the general
population isn't aware of - unless you want to go out and do a lot of
research. Do we know exactly what the firefighters, police or coast guard
do? But we fund them, and we also have oversight. It keeps them connected
to society - so if a Firefighter gets hurt in the line of duty, we can
take care of them and be responsible for them.

Well, it's actually obvious that at the very least the US government is aware both of the existence of demons and of the Slayer, since they created the Initiative. And as such, if they wished to offer assistance/input to the Slayer, they've known where to find her for several years.

I guess I'm asking you for an action plan, something that could've been achieved or an agenda that could've been articulated inside the confines of this television show. The questions that you're asking...I don't know, they don't seem to belong to BtVS. I can see them being addressed by AtS, which traditionally concerned itself with larger more pervasive institutions of power. BtVS...the question of the One Girl dealing with both the pressures and the rewards of being the One Girl belongs to BtVS very strongly and is a recurring theme. Buffy spent her life alternately bitching about being the One and then dealing with different feelings arising from situations in which she wasn't the only One; it's not just being a Slayer. Yes, she dealt twice with sharing that power with another woman, but she also saw herself replaced by Tara in Willow's life, and I think she recognized that from Willow's perspective, she herself displaced Willow's position as the only girl in Xander's life. Twice she experienced a situation in which the death of another woman meant that Buffy would be the only one to take over an enormous set of responsibilities from that woman; first as Slayer, then with her mother's death. So, to me, that question and dealing with that in the ending, a very fitting solution to a problem Buffy's been working to solve for 7 seasons, was proper for the show. Your question, while it's not unanswerable or irrelevant to the Buffyverse as a whole, seems out of place to me on BtVS itself. I do think the idea of a network of information sharing and a decentralization of power is alluded to earlier in the season; there is a scene with Giles and Willow (and perhaps Dawn?) in which Giles, for the first time, becomes interested in what possibilities the internet might have for sharing information, as opposed to being so rigidly in favor of books, rare books/single copy books strictly held and guarded by representatives of the WC, at that. So, sharing of information, information as power, sharing that worldwide among this loose network of Slayers (and perhaps Xander, Willow, etc., are functioning as local representatives, helping train, etc. rather than just vacationing in Africa and SA) and maybe humans helping the Slayers like Xander and Willow did...I think that's thematically resonant. I don't think your question is thematically resonant for this show. A possible question for some iteration of the universe to deal with, absolutely; I mean, I'm interested in the question, too. But Buffy's a show about a girl and her personal experiences, and it's never been about the larger sociopolitical system of the world, and I wouldn't feel that the show could or should try to contain that question unless it wanted to become a very different show. Any more than I'd want The West Wing to deal with the personal experiences of single teens and young adults. Every show isn't about every thing, you know? And I think that in the larger schematic of the Buffyverse, it's not yet "time" for the public at large to be made to deal with the existence of demons. And while the public doesn't know exactly what the police do, they know criminals exist, and the existence of those human criminals doesn't call their entire belief system into question.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Yup. The government seems to know where Buffy is. And Buffy knows the government exists, and doesn't call them either. It's a two way street.

So, sharing of information, information as power, sharing that worldwide among this loose network of Slayers (and perhaps Xander, Willow, etc., are functioning as local representatives, helping train, etc. rather than just vacationing in Africa and SA) and maybe humans helping the Slayers like Xander and Willow did...I think that's thematically resonant.

But again - it's sharing information within an Inteligentsia that's largely seperate and disconnected from the local communities. The idea of Willow & Xander as local representatives doesn't hold up much thematically, given that they don't seem to interact (after S3) with the community in any way that would indicate to a viewer that they've got a finger on the local pulse. Or that they have much appreciation for local communities such that they'd pursue such engagement.

Buffy's a show about a girl and her personal experiences, and it's never been about the larger sociopolitical system of the world, and I wouldn't feel that the show could or should try to contain that question unless it wanted to become a very different show

Buffy has a relationship with non-inteligentsia in S1-4, and that is symbolic of the sociopolitical element. The writing's particularly conscious of that during the HS seasons.

The personal is also the political. And on the personal level, Buffy and co self-select out of the town life instead of trying to participate, just as Buffy shuts out her friends. And while we have that message that it's bad when Buffy shuts out the people around her on a micro level, we have the contradictory message that it's not a concern for the scoobies (as a group) to shut out the other groupings around them.

In early seasons, Buffy & Co "save the world" because they like the world and care about the people in it - even those they don't know. It raises stakes for the characters, because it means that what they do matters, even when people don't know about it or see it.

In latter seasons, they don't like the world so much, and don't care much about the people in it that they don't know, but save the world because it's what they're supposed to do. And it's unremarked, even as the show bemoans the lead character "going through the motions" herself - that the group is going through the motions as well.

In distillation - the story largely misses the obvious Buffy:Scoobies::Scoobies:Community metaphor - a methaphor they did hit in earlier seasons. And most of the issues around the slayer empowerment spell fall into "implementation" issues that I would be more confident of if the metaphor above had been held.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

And Buffy knows the government exists, and doesn't call them either. It's a two way street.

You really think one 22-yo girl's capacity to call the entity "the government" up and say "Hi, I'm the Slayer, I would like to involve you, government, in my Slayage of vampires and other demons" is equal to that entity's capacity to reach out formally to her? Particularly when that girl's prior experience with reps of said government were not pleasant? If the government wants in with Buffy, they know where she is, who to call. I don't think Buffy has the same ability to put out feelers. Her only remaining contact is Riley, with whom she seems to be in only occasional touch.

I agree that it was a failing of the second half of the series in general to make the Scoobs so insular. It certainly made for a more boring show. I guess I just see it as more of a technical failing than a thematic one, and I never really saw the "obvious" Buffy:Scoobies::Scoobies:Community relationship you point out. A reduction of the people one sees regularly and knows personally to a much smaller group is a natural occurrence during college, IMO. Only once out in the workplace, and only in certain workplaces, does one ever return to the same sense of high schoolishness that you experience in actual high school. The more institutionalized the workplace, the larger, the more cubicle-monkeyesque, the more like high school it is. If you work for a very large company that, say, has a cafeteria and gym on site, it becomes more hs-ish. Or, hey, if you go to prison? Same thing. College tends to not have that institutionalized feel unless perhaps you attend a small school where students are forced to concentrate their lives around the campus, or a religious school, etc. This is why I point to this change in the show as a technical issue rather than a thematic one. It's a technically better choice, i.e. it opens up the show more, allows more writing opportunities, makes the show more interesting visually and otherwise, if the Scoobs do not follow that insular path; however, I cannot say that the insular path during the college years doesn't ring true to me. I know that in college, the people of whom I was aware was reduced to my group. My group was larger than the Scoobs, yes, but it was still a group that was centered around a common interest/activity, and that's what I saw other groups doing in college; finding their group, becoming increasingly unaware of anything else. I mean, I knew who the homecoming queen was in high school, who the cheerleaders and football players were. In college, I had no idea, no awareness, "popularity" didn't translate. No Greeks were concerned with me, nor I with them.

But of course, just because something makes sense and rings true doesn't mean it's the most interesting choice for the show to make. I think it's largely a setting choice. Obviously the show realized it needed to give the Scoobs a non-public public gathering spot to replace the Library, because they came up with the Magic Box early in S5. But the MB never really worked, because it's not really analogous to the library. The same basic feeling could've been continued if they'd moved their central location to the Museum, say, instead of first Giles's apartment, then the MB, and then disgustingly, Buffy's house. But again, to me these are not bad choices that betray any basic premise or thematic element of the story (I just don't feel the connections you're making, I suppose it's a personal feeling thing) but bad choices technically for a writing staff that has to generate 44 pages of stuff per ep to make. They limited their storytelling ability needlessly, and it showed big time, but I think they were too close to it to diagnose what was limiting them.

Also, as seasons progress, below-the-line costs have to drop as above-the-line goes up. AtL= what you are committed to pay up front, i.e., salaries to regulars, content owners (producers with a stake, etc.). BtL = money that varies ep to ep. If we hire a ton of extras for one ep, we have less to spend on extras the next ep. If we shoot a lot of location here, we have to shoot more on set there. That probably drove the horrifying S7 retreat to Buffy's freaking living room more than any other factor.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

It's also very difficult for me to ask myself what S7 failings occurred on a thematic level when S7 fails to cohere even on a basic "What does the villain want?" level. Prior seasons I can dissect more carefully, but when I have no understanding at any point of what the primary driver is after, what it wishes to accomplish, why it does what it does, and not only whether or not it has been defeated in the end but whether anything of any import at all has happened with regard to its agenda...there are too many dangling limbs in S7 for me to have any real ability to look at the forest.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I never really saw the "obvious" Buffy:Scoobies::Scoobies:Community relationship you point out.

As noted before - this is largely a matter of perspective. I'm not approaching it as a Lit or Theater person. As a public policy/government person, it's a relationship I've looked for both by training and natural inclination, whereas I don't think it occurred to Whedon et al. (Just as "how hammers actually work" didn't occur to them either.)

A reduction of the people one sees regularly and knows personally to a much smaller group is a natural occurrence during college, IMO.

For some, perhaps. For me, college was an explosion, as I was exposed to so many newer and larger things almost every week. And while the number of close friends I have is about the same size as in HS, the number of people I know fairly well is considerably larger. But then - I've always had jobs that required me to interact with a lot of different people.

I've known people where college was a narrowing society. But it was hardly something I saw as universally true. So when Whedon made the narrowing choice, it rang as very much a thematic choice as much as a technical. ('People who don't live in our house needn't matter very much' starts to look like as much a theme as 'Fathers suck' even if both have genesis in technical issues.)

Even given the outside constraints in terms of sets, budgets, and casting issues...

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

For me, college was an explosion

Well, neither of our experiences was a universal experience, not even a Western or American one. I think that yours was probably more rarefied, though, quite honestly, as is your life, and more dissimilar to the Scoobs' experience that we *saw*; their current lives probably are more similar to yours, traveling, meeting new people, representing something larger than themselves to others. Do you think that for Buffy college would've been an explosion rather than a narrowing? Because I disagree. Xander wasn't in college. Willow isolated herself with her girlfriend. Buffy didn't really feel comfortable in college; she always seemed to me to represent the person who goes to college because that's what you do after high school, not because she had an eye toward a career or even opening her mind with new knowledge/experiences. And like a lot of people in that situation, she eventually dropped out. Which reduced her circle to people she already knew.

What is it about Buffy or any of the rest of them as a character or the show that makes your experience of college as an explosion seem like the more logical thematic choice than the narrowing that the show actually went with? I think someone from Buffy's world *did* experience that; Cordelia. She left. She met people. She got involved in "bigger" issues. I don't necessarily think we were supposed to see Buffy's insular world, overreliance on that tiny group, as healthy; I mean, it certainly was dysfunctional and exclusionary even of people on its outskirts, as Anya was often used to point out, and as Tara's awkward presence often indicated. Thematically I would've liked to have seen S6/S7 invert S4's message of "hold tight to the people you know best, nurture those relationships, don't let them go" and tell me, "Sometimes you have to know when to let go of those same people, when hunkering down with just them is not the best choice any longer." I always felt Joss et al were too worried about backlash (or perhaps just not interested in the show enough) to shake up the group in that manner, though.

Once again, other choices: definitely more interesting to watch and work with. But not, IMO, thematically incorrect. Neither choice is, really. I always wanted to see some representation of the widening world; I thought that Tara, who was so shy and isolated, would be an interesting character to use for that, especially since that would distress Willow. It wouldn't have been a thematic mistake to open it up, but neither do I agree it was a thematic mistake to close it down.

I also think that in high school we had a fairly shallow representation of the world. I mean, in high school we had the same ratio of regular vs. recurring characters, but we had more crowd scenes, more random students hurt/vamped/etc. for Buffy to deal with. In later seasons, randoms took more engineering (the red shirt in O&FA, the girl with the dog in that ep where Spike drapes himself over the cross, etc.) because the whole situation had to be set up; in high school, we naturally come across randoms in our everyday life as we go to class, get forced to work on decorations for whatever, etc. So, I'm not really sure I'm all that impressed that the Scoobs' effect on the world as represented by the teenage population of Sunnydale was ever managed in a way that was anything more than a convenient tool for storytelling.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I think that yours was probably more rarefied

Perhaps. I feel like I'd need to run an analysis and I don't have date. College was an explosion for many of the people I knew. For a lot of people who had very different interests and personalities than me. My general experience here has been that the older you get, the more people you know and interact with - and that has held for most of my acquaintences as well.

Do you think that for Buffy college would've been an explosion rather than a narrowing? Because I disagree. Xander wasn't in college. Willow isolated herself with her girlfriend. Buffy didn't really feel comfortable in college; she always seemed to me to represent the person who goes to college because that's what you do after high school, not because she had an eye toward a career or even opening her mind with new knowledge/experiences.

I think these are all choices, not set in stone, and I find some more plausible than others. Willow isolated herself - but that wasn't the only option for her character seeing as Willow began the series as someone who collaborated with non-Xander people doing her computer doings. Develop a professional interest when she gets to college, and she gets a circle of social/professional acquaintences.

Buffy, in HS, is someone who doesn't think of a future because she doesn't believe she has one. She narrows her horizons by choice, though this has been ingrained. Buffy, in college could be exposed to something she becomes passionate about. I know lots of people who just went to college because "that's what you do" who experienced this. My younger sister, for example.

And it would have made just as much sense in terms of characterization as a Buffy who drops out. (Though S5 indicates that Buffy actually likes college quite a bit and seems to be fairly comfortable in the environment, and does well.)

Just as it was plausible for the characters to turn as insular as they did. And while it clearly seems a lot opportunity to me, I do question whether the story views it as a lost opportunity. When Whedon turns the town into a barren sinkhole, it seems a message that society and the town had nothing much of value to offer. Otherwise, it would have been mourned in the story more than it was given it's absence in the last three or so years of the series.

Although, I don't think Whedon thought on this beyond 'convenient tool for storytelling' and 'wouldn't it be cool to blow up the HS, have the town collapse into a sinkhole...

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

Buffy, in HS, is someone who doesn't think of a future because she
doesn't believe she has one. She narrows her horizons by choice, though
this has been ingrained.

Sure, and I think that the entire series moves toward an end where she realizes she does have a future, or realizes what she needs to do to change her calling into something that allows a future to exist for both her and Slayers to come. I think you're asking the story to do a few years earlier what it was moving toward as its final act for Buffy, and while that would've been fine, I think taking the full series for her to arrive at that point is fine, too. I don't know, I think letting go of being the One Girl is a life lesson for Buffy, and thus was fitting to me as a series lesson. Particularly since this show is supposed to be a horror show, and the Final Girl scenario such a popular point among cultural theorists who write about horror. Final Girl does all sorts of stuff Final Girl isn't supposed to do, but instead of being punished goes hey, let's rearrange so that there are so many girls that there can never again *be* a final girl.

I guess I really don't have any more to say on the point, since you seem to be talking about a full series overhaul, and I initially got into this discussion because you were referring to very specific issues with the end of S7. An overhaul of the last half of the entire series...well, let's just say that insularity isn't even the first issue to address, IMO. It's too broad a subject for me to discuss here. I believe I did plenty of S4-forward rewrites already between TWoP back in the day and my LJ over time, and pretty much got it all out there.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I think letting go of being the One Girl is a life lesson for Buffy, and thus was fitting to me as a series lesson.

Generally having conflicts between multiple valued paths is generally a decent source of dramatic tension. This element and "the one girl" aren't mutually exclusive. That the main character might have aspirations or interests, unexplored as they might go, needn't be withheld for the finale.

I really don't have any more to say on the point, since you seem to be talking about a full series overhaul, and I initially got into this discussion because you were referring to very specific issues with the end of S7

My apologies, then. My specific issues with then end of S7, are in large part, are elements of what S7 has built on top of the prior seasons of storytelling.

That conclusion is supposed to be triumphal and liberating - not just on a personal for Buffy. It's intended as a personal-is-political statement about "emopowerment". But that intended extension (Which Whedon has spoken of many times) doesn't really work because the story was too exclusionary and insular.

I'm not demanding the story be re-written. I'm explaining why the story, while working on a personal level for the individual character, doesn't really fly very well on as general a level as it was intended.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

I'm just not sure that the story was intended to work on the level you are calling for it to work. It does work for the character, and it does work as essentially a model of...well, an overview of feminism(s), actually. Did the show ever claim to be operating on a global geopolitical level, or interested in social issues beyond those pertaining to young people, young women in particular? The personal may well be political, but the political is not always personal; sometimes the political remains the political in an individual's experience, and I don't see any claims of ownership of the issues you're discussing from any of the characters, or from the show as a whole. It seems to me that by the end of the series the group is really only just *entering* the kind of larger life, just ready to move out and gather the kind of experiences, that would be required for them to project their personal interests onto a larger screen than the little Hellmouth town they've lived in for so long. That the show didn't explore every angle every viewer can imagine it exploring...I just don't see where the show or anyone with the show promised or claimed that the story was interested in the questions you're asking.

There are so many questions that seem to me properly the realm of that show, that actually were proposed and then left unexplored, that the idea that a question I don't perceive the show as having put into play in the way you're suggesting...well, I just don't see the failure on that level. I had expectations and disappointments that I actually do think pertain to issues the show put onto the playing field and then just left floating out there, but they're questions about morality and honor and the value of life and I had to come to terms with the fact that even though the show *could have* answered those questions (or even articulated an interest in them), could've contained what I wanted it to contain, ultimately the direction of the show wasn't interested in those questions, and I can imagine effective ways to pull off the questions they *were* interested in asking in a way that's as elegant as I could wish it to be. So, my desires/perfect expectations could've remained disappointed while leaving me artistically satisfied, had more attention been paid to...leaving me artistically satisfied. The failures were not, IMO, to attend to intellectual questions or questions about morality and honor that I perceived the show as leading me to expect they'd explore, but rather to pull off the exploration of the ideas they *did* choose to explore in an artistically elegant fashion. Execution, not content, because every viewer has a list of issues they'd like to have seen the show attend to.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Yes, we don't have much of the canon on the topic, may be eventually we'll have more and will be able to prove it one way or the other, or at least have more material to play with. But it seemed important to me point the matter of choice vs. unilateral decision. And, yes, it is not so much getting the power itself, as accepting the personal resposibility to stay and fight vs. waiting for Buffy to come and save.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

One of the underlying themes of the season 7 – as I saw it – was that no Buffy (or Buffy and Faith, or Buffy and a dozen of people) can save everyone. It was discussed in Lessons, it was visible in Potentials’ stories. They came in Sunnydale expecting Buffy to save them. Well, she cannot. Even when she tries. So the question is: run and wait, or stay and fight. It is not so much about empowerment, girl power of whoever, it is about accepting the personal responsibility about ourselves and the world.
Buffy didn’t make anyone stay and fight. She didn’t say “we are going in”, she said “I am going in”, giving others an opportunity to choose – potentials or not.

I am not saying that it was a perfect solution to all problems, I am not pretending that my theory explains everything. It works for me on several possible levels, not all of them. Not everyone is going to have nifty superpowers, and not everyone who have them will be happy about it. But what I tried to express was that everyone had a choice in the matter, however small this choice could be. If one can say that with power come responsibilities, then may be the reverse is right too – with responsibilities comes power. One doesn’t have to be a “Chosen one” to stay and fight for themselves.

I know, you are looking at it from a slightly different perspective, and I am not sure I addressed everything here. If I think of something to add, I’ll do it.

[mediumdave.livejournal.com]

I am not saying that it was a perfect solution to all problems...

And that, I think, was part of the point: That there are no perfect solutions.