Indulging myself

[avrelia]

I wasn’t sure whether I should post it, and then I did it – filtered and all, because sometimes I need to see my thoughts written to clear them out of my brain. There were several (or one big) kerfuffles the last summer about constructive critiques vs. hate vs. being nice, and I was thinking about what I love and don’t love and why…

And sometimes my dislikes have nothing constructive in it – I just don’t like the author’s version of the Universe or the characters. And I see no good reason to write the author about it.

Ok, here it is. I strongly dislike herself_nyc’s Bittersweets series. I read all up to the “Buffy in Italy” story – I don’t remember its name precisely – and then I stopped. I realized two things: 1) I really don’t like it. 2) I don’t have to torture myself then.

Why did I read it so far? Well, it is an amazing story. I have a deep respect for the skills and craft, and I admire the style and plotting – in the abstract way. Besides, every new story is an event in fandom from the first chapter with all the revisions and discussions, and I, being a sheep, wanted to know how it is going. Plus, the sex scenes are good. ;)

Also, I quite liked Herself’s “What she deserves” and “Lovingkindness” Universe.

But I don’t like Spike and Buffy there, and I don’t like what is going on with them. It is not even all the babies… it is all the mental torture, and how they don’t change forever, and other characters are pale shadows without making sense to me. They never change. Spike is always a martyr of love; Buffy is always a broken girl who doesn’t really deserve him.
And even the Victorian story, that everyone loves and which was one of the first fics I read ever, apart from amazing period details doesn’t rub well with me.

I don’t like Herself’s Spike and Herself’s Buffy. They are not bad, but they feel utterly alien and wrong to me. Recently I understood why: they belong to high tragedy; or, since their story ends reasonably well, to classical moral drama. They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.
Now, my Spike and Buffy make fun of each other – from School hard to Chosen and beyond, more over, they make fun of themselves. They mock and tease and laugh; they could be cruel and gently, and they changed. They are still changing.

So, yeah… not much sense, but I feel better.

Comments

I completely agree

[superplin.livejournal.com]

I don’t like Herself’s Spike and Herself’s Buffy. They are not bad, but they feel utterly alien and wrong to me. Recently I understood why: they belong to high tragedy; or, since their story ends reasonably well, to classical moral drama. They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.

I have often said the same thing. I think Herself is a fantastic writer, but her stories don't include the characters I know and cherish from the show.

Of course, this is a big problem for me:
They never change. Spike is always a martyr of love; Buffy is always a broken girl who doesn’t really deserve him.

Because I absolutely could not agree less.

Re: I completely agree

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Of course, this is a big problem for me:

They never change. Spike is always a martyr of love; Buffy is always a broken girl who doesn’t really deserve him.

Because I absolutely could not agree less.

I'm assuming avrelia was talking about B/S within the context of the story which I completely agree with unless there were some radical changes in recent chapters. I quit reading when Buffy lost her leg.

Re: I completely agree

[superplin.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming avrelia was talking about B/S within the context of the story which I completely agree with unless there were some radical changes in recent chapters. I quit reading when Buffy lost her leg.

Oh, I'm sure that's what she meant: I was saying that I completely disagree with that characterization of them, and that is the reason that I can't read Herself's stories. These are not people I recognize.

Re: I completely agree

[asta77.livejournal.com]

::slaps head::

Ah, I get your meaning. See, this teaches me to try to read and reply fast while I'm at work. I completely agree with your disagreement. ;)

Re: I completely agree

[superplin.livejournal.com]

I also meant to emphasize that the lack of humor is one of the two big things (alongside the Buffy characterization) that really make a difference for me. No matter how bleak things got on the show, there was always quippiness, and especially between Buffy and Spike. Having no banter or funny at all essentially turns them into two completely characters even if all of the rest was identical.

Re: I completely agree

[superplin.livejournal.com]

completely different characters, that was supposed to be. Sigh.

Re: I completely agree

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Wow. There was a lot of fun in my LJ when I had to work. Who knew? Anyway, I am glad I am not alone.

I think Herself is a fantastic writer, but her stories don't include the characters I know and cherish from the show.

Absolutely, and yet I cannot think of them as completely different people - like sometimes I do when reading a AU fanfic.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

every new story is an event in fandom from the first chapter with all the revisions and discussions, and I, being a sheep, wanted to know how it is going.

That's pretty much why I stuck with her. Although, I did have to stop reading her last big WIP, just because the comments in her LJ were driving me nuts. And I have actually written herself before, so none of this is exactly new.

My problem with her writing is mostly her Buffy. Like you said, she hasn't been allowed to grow at all. And it gets hard to take story after story of Spike worshipping her while she's just a constant cold, cruel, abusive bitch who doesn't deserve him. I constantly feel like the character's being punished...whether it's losing a leg, becoming a rapist, being a terrible mother, or just being shown over and over again as being shallow and insensitive. And really? Please do not have Buffy beat Spike with a prosthetic leg and expect me to take the story seriously.

Oh, and also, I can't stand Jem. The way her kindness, sweetness, affection, etc. have to be highlighted over and over again...not only is she dull, but it really does feel like a backhanded commentary on just how cold Buffy is. Not to mention the fact that she mostly just seems like a sort of psuedo-Mary Sue, just there to provide Spike with constant affection and adulation. It's weird.

They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.

You know? I'd never realized this, but you're right. I think that's a big problem I have with them as well.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Please do not have Buffy beat Spike with a prosthetic leg and expect me to take the story seriously.

::dies laughing::

Did that really happen? I must have quite reading right before that.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

Heh. Like I could make that one up? Yeah, it happened. I can't remember what it's called, but it's the story where Buffy actually jumps into different AU's just so we can see *all* the different ways she's screwed Spike over. Look! In this one *he's* the cripple and she's kicked him out of the house and left him to wither away on his own!

*and no I'm not making that part up either*

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Please do not have Buffy beat Spike with a prosthetic leg and expect me to take the story seriously.

Good thing I don't remember it. ;)

I agree with your assessment of her Buffy, but I don't know who of the her characters was driving me crazy more: Coldhearted bitch Buffy, Too good to be true Spike, or the brick wall between Spike and William she built.

I've read couple of intallments of that last one, then ran away, so I don't know much of Gem, but I think I would like the ultimate goodness in her.

[molly_may]

swsa really summed up the thing I dislike the most about the Bittersweets series. It feels like Buffy gets punished over and over again, that she has to always suffer horrible tragedies, and that on some level she deserves it because she's cold and incapable of love. Spike, on the other hand, is practically saintly in his devotion to her. That's not the way I see the characters at all. And I absolutely agree about the humor. Spike and Buffy are *funny*. That's one of the things that makes Spike a more appealing partner for Buffy than Angel ever was. Disregarding that means disregarding one of the most appealing things about the characters.

That said, I did like the Bittersweets stories up to a point, before the babies and the missing leg and before it became clear that Buffy would always be cast in the role of coldhearted bitch. I didn't read the last one at all, but I have been skimming this latest time travel story, because I like the premise. And of course, Herself is a talented writer and her skill draws me into the story. My favorite story of hers is the one set post-Chosen, "Disenchantment".

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

It feels like Buffy gets punished over and over again, that she has to always suffer horrible tragedies, and that on some level she deserves it because she's cold and incapable of love. Spike, on the other hand, is practically saintly in his devotion to her. That's not the way I see the characters at all.

::nods, nods, nods::

[gobi-rex.livejournal.com]

I remember starting the Bittersweet series, but I honestly don't remember it at all. Plus, I don't think I ever got to the parts you talk about.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I liked the beginning well enough. the first several stories were interesting variation on season 6 developments, and though couple of thing felt "off," I enjoyed it. But the later stories - just keep hitting the same note.

[lynnb.livejournal.com]

It's not mean, it's a legitimate criticism, one I share myself. Herself is a good writer, but I don't think she "gets" Buffy at all. Her Buffy is unrecognizable to me. No way has she ever been that cold or remote, nor has Spike ever been that saintly. I also miss the humor, which isn't only essential to Buffy and Spike, but to Xander and Giles as well.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

No way has she ever been that cold or remote, nor has Spike ever been that saintly.

I agree, but I cannot imagine myself going out and saying: "you got Buffy wrong" that's why I guess I chose to post it this way.

And Xander and Giles there - for me they look like parts of landscape in her series. I hardly remember about thier existence - as opposite to TV.

[lynnb.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's better to be able to express your opinion in this way, in your own lj. As for your observation of Xander and Giles - exactly.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Can one get whiplash from shaking their head in agreement? Because I totally agree with you, swsa, and molly_may and you have voiced every problem I have with the Bittersweets Series. :) (Which, btw, was one of the first fics I ever read and found it an incredible read - in the beginning).

I should have stopped reading when the time travel began (Buffy prostituting herself? Hell no, she would never allow that to happen I don't care how desperate she was) but, no, I kept going for awhile longer because I hoped it would improve. It didn't.

Herself lost me when Buffy lost that leg. You are so right, the story just became unrelentingly bleak. While Buffy is not perfect and screws up, the Buffy Herself writes is a cold hearted, selfish, abusive, unworthy, resentful bitch who apparently deserves to wallow in misery for the remainder of her life.

And Spike as saint? Puh-leeze. Personally, I was disgusted when Mr Perfect Father allowed himself to be beat up by Buffy in front of his daughter. What the hell does that teach a child?!

I'm actually sad I had to stop reading the series because I do believe Herself to be a very talented writer. Unfortunately, she either has a lack of understanding when it comes to these characters or is blinded to their many facets because of the narrow view she has of them. It's like she's stuck in a rut of only viewing Buffy through her worst moments in season 6.

[superplin.livejournal.com]

While Buffy is not perfect and screws up, the Buffy Herself writes is a cold hearted, selfish, abusive, unworthy, resentful bitch who apparently deserves to wallow in misery for the remainder of her life ... It's like she's stuck in a rut of only viewing Buffy through her worst moments in season 6.

Exactly.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it always seemed like a cheat to me that Bittersweets starts right around Dead Things...so we're at Buffy's lowest point, but it's before Spike hits his. So Spike in Bittersweets never has to deal with the attempted rape, sleeping with Anya, leaving town...nothing. Meanwhile, emotionally, Buffy's forever stuck in that alley in DT.

[molly_may]

Herself lost me when Buffy lost that leg.

That was the point when I gave up too, although I've read bits and pieces of the later stories, and like I mentioned in my comment to avrelia, I'm skimming the most recent story. But Buffy losing the leg just seemed like needless character torture, one more misery heaped on top of her. I've never actually read the infamous "Buffy beats Spike with the prosthetic leg" chapter either, and I think I'm pretty happy about that.

Personally, I was disgusted when Mr Perfect Father allowed himself to be beat up by Buffy in front of his daughter. What the hell does that teach a child?!

That's the other thing that gets me, that Buffy, who always shouldered every responsibility handed to her and who loved and protected her family and friends above all else even when they didn't treat her as well as they could have, is a terrible, cold mother, while flighty, violent, irresponsible Spike is the world's best daddy. And you know I love Spike and am well aware of all of his good qualities. But I wouldn't trust him to take care of my cat, much less a child.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

And you know I love Spike and am well aware of all of his good qualities. But I wouldn't trust him to take care of my cat, much less a child.

Hee! Yeah, while I could see him caring for Dawn who was relatively self-sufficient I always had a hard time envisioning him changing diapers and giving bottles. It just doesn't seem like it would fit well into his lifestyle.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

But I wouldn't trust him to take care of my cat, much less a child.

YEah, I have to agree with you on it.
Come to think of, that accident with Miss Kitty Fantastico? Spike probably trained Dawn to use crossbow...

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I should have stopped reading when the time travel began (Buffy prostituting herself? Hell no, she would never allow that to happen I don't care how desperate she was) but, no, I kept going for awhile longer because I hoped it would improve. It didn't.

yeah, that one got me too. I mean, if I were a supernaturally strong woman who stuck in a different time/place without friends of means to live socially acceptable life, my first choice would be robbery. Seriously, Buffy I know - she wouldn't have prostitution as the first thing that comes to mind.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

I *just* had this conversation with someone in email the other day. I think Herself is a wonderful writer in the way she crafts her stories, but I also don't ever recognize the people she calls Spike, Buffy, Dawn, Xander, etc... She basically writes original characters with Buffyverse names and trappings, but none of the true characteristics of the people we saw onscreen. And I also think she wants Buffy punished again and again and again...

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

You are very right.

I find it very engaging, that all this time I thought I am all alone in my confusion about Bittersweets series, and now I find so many agree with me.

it fees good. ;)

[skylee.livejournal.com]

I haven't read Herself's earlier stories, I only read the later ones, so I didn't get as much sense of "Buffy getting punished over and over" because I haven't read that many.

But I agree with what you said about her characterisation. The writing is good, it can make me emotional sometimes, too. But those characters are not how I see Spike and Buffy either. Or Angel.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

But those characters are not how I see Spike and Buffy either. Or Angel.

I guess, it is the overload of similar development over and over kills me. Plus lack of humour. Plus the division between Spike and William that is more substantial that the one between Angel and Angelus.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Not mean-- not directed at her as a person at all, just a frank criticism of her writing. I'm rather certain you could have easily told her (not publicly, maybe, but told her nevertheless). And your words are echoing some of my own thoughts--

Herself is a great writer, no doubt about it; I have read everything up to Where They Take You In, with differing amounts of delight and intrigue, but, for all her writing skills, I have to agree with your findings that she uses certain repetitive patterns.

they belong to high tragedy; or, since their story ends reasonably well, to classical moral drama. They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.

Anna, this is brilliant: I had come to the same conclusion about the lack of humour, but you just add the systematic background.

Now, my Spike and Buffy make fun of each other – from School hard to Chosen and beyond, more over, they make fun of themselves. They mock and tease and laugh; they could be cruel and gently, and they changed. They are still changing.

Yes.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Herself is a great writer, no doubt about it;

That’s why I kept reading, her style and plotting would suck me in, and then I realize that it feels too wrong for me, so I don’t get any fun in the process, but I am too deep in it to stop. ;)

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

Recently I understood why: they belong to high tragedy; or, since their story ends reasonably well, to classical moral drama. They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.

Wow. That's really a good way of putting it, and it really sums up some of the issues I have with that particular series.

I though it was wonderful in the beginning, when it was set in S6. She really nailed Buffy's bleak despair and Spike's rather selfish love, and I still like to go back and read the first few sections -- up until Jem is born, and then I have to stop.

As quite a few people mentioned above, everything becomes so unbelievably bleak after that that reading is a chore rather than a pleasure. And what gets me is that Spike and Buffy stagnated in their S6 roles and pretty much stayed the same way (with minor variations) for something like the next thirty years.

And maybe it's because she kept Spike soulless, until the most recent installment -- I can buy that, actually, and the one thing I'm very glad about is that she finally gave Spike a soul and put the two of them on a more equal level. But that doesn't explain what she did with Buffy, and I can't really forgive that. Not that Buffy doesn't have her share of damage, but I hated seeing her constantly portrayed as a monster who only mistreated poor Spike. (And I know her stories only focused on the crises between them, but I would have loved seeing some of the everyday stuff that gave some evidence for why these two stayed with each other. It couldn't possibly be that bad for them all the time, right?) I can understand that she went AU from Wrecked, but the thing is that in canon Buffy went through plenty of bad stuff in the rest of S6 and S7 -- the AU, Willow going bad, etc. -- and she never turned into some kind of abusive bitch as a result. If the "real" Buffy could make it through, why not her Buffy? It hurts me to see her treated that way.

(And I have to agree with swsa in having no love at all for Jem as a character.)

Heh. I kind of feel funny saying this. I've given feedback to her most recent installment (although some of the Buffy-hate in the comments made me furious). She's an incredible writer, and I could never approach her skills in a million years, but something funny happens when I try to read her stories. I become lost in them very easily, up until the point when I try to actually picture the Spike and Buffy I know on the shows saying the dialogue she writes. And at that point there's some kind of mental block. I think she lost, or froze, the characters somewhere along the line. (I'm not even sure -- did she watch S7, or S5 of AtS? It might explain something -- some writers focus only on where they fell in love with the show.)

[superplin.livejournal.com]

I'm not even sure -- did she watch S7, or S5 of AtS? It might explain something -- some writers focus only on where they fell in love with the show.

I'm not sure whether she watched all of S7, although I remember that I stopped reading her LJ for a while there because she was so very anti-Buffy and hated a bunch of stuff. (Of course, hating S7 is a pretty popular sport, so I had to stop reading a bunch of people there. Heh.)

I think her famous "Spike is officially dead to me" post was in AtS S5, though, so she must have watched at least part of it. Unless I'm misremembering the timing, which is certainly possible.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

Actually she did watch S7. She had a post a couple months ago talking about how much more she liked it when she rewatched it all in one go. But yeah, at the time it was airing, I remember her hating it. Especially LMPTM, which she seemed to consider an absolute betrayal of canon, for reasons of which I still don't understand. Something to do with William's mother not having servants or something. *g*

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Especially LMPTM, which she seemed to consider an absolute betrayal of canon,

I think it had to do with the historical inaccuracies, that rubbed the wrong way with Herself's picture of Victorian England and Willaim's pre-vamp life. She is probably right about inaccuracies, but we judged BtVS and AtS by the way they represent history of this world...

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

As quite a few people mentioned above, everything becomes so unbelievably bleak after that that reading is a chore rather than a pleasure. And what gets me is that Spike and Buffy stagnated in their S6 roles and pretty much stayed the same way (with minor variations) for something like the next thirty years.

Yeah, I find pretty much unbelievable. People change. Even vampires do (especially Spike). We stay recognizable and all, but we change – and married life do change people. I see it in myself. I don’t demand realism from fanfiction, but stagnation is supremely boring.

I become lost in them very easily, up until the point when I try to actually picture the Spike and Buffy I know on the shows saying the dialogue she writes. And at that point there's some kind of mental block.

Yeah, that’s what happens to me, too. That’s why this confusion. Ususally, when I read something I don’t like I just stop reading. Here I got sucked in, and along the way I understand that it feels wrong.