Cranberry trees
Jan. 6th, 2020 08:03 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
avreliaFrom my January Talking Meme.
You can still ask questions!
selenak asked about most annoying to you clichés about Russian characters in Western media
*
Cranberries don’t grow on trees, of course. It is an old joke in Russia – used since 19th century to mock ridiculous tales of foreigners told about Russia. Foreigners would come visit – for business, on diplomatic missions, exploring or just traveling for fun - and then wrote about what they saw. Some of it was truth, some – misunderstandings, some – parts of the whole, some outrages fantasies or whatnot. There were never accounts of cranberries (Oxycóccus) that grow on trees, but highbush cranberry is English name for (Vibúrnum ópulus), a totally different plant with red berries that do grow on trees. So it’s both truth and a hilarious image of a tired stereotype of weird mysterious Russia.
If I to study Russia by popular movies and tv series I would have learned that it’s always winter there. That it’s populated by beautiful young women who are all study in their ballet schools to be perfect spies and assassins. And who – if not killed in time - suddenly turn into old and weird and wrinkled baba yaga-like elderly women, without a missing link.
And ugly brutish men of all ages who only eat vodka and do crime.
And there are indeterminate grey masses who don’t do anything.
Stereotypes are changing with the times – it used to be all shiny princes and princess vs. unwashed masses, then just unwashed masses, then spies, than criminals, and then criminals and spies…
What annoys me most is not even that those stereotypes exist… Let’s face it: Russia does have cold winter, and criminals, and spies, and ballet, and vodka is being drunk as we speak. But there are so much more, and nobody cares. Movie after movie is being made with spy heroines - but we made her so cool! She is, like, a strong woman! And so sexy! And I am tired. There are quite a lot of Russian and former USSR emigration in USA, Canada and the rest of the world these days. They do all kind of stuff, work all kinds of jobs – there are a lot of actors and actresses with Soviet (not necessarily Russian) background, and I see them portraying Russian mobsters, criminals and spies only…
There are few exceptions and I had to dig in strange places to find them. Like take Jupiter Ascending. It’s strange to point at this movie as a good example of anything, but I am grateful that Russian emigrants in it are weird but regular folk, and Jupiter does unglamourous but regular and legal work (or are they illegal aliens? And all they do therefore illegal? They don’t do crimes as a regular job, anyway)
There are other glimpses and I find myself cheering for them. But mostly, writers are inserting Russians in story for exotic purposes and easy villains and such. It’s not that anyone is going to complain… And if they do, one can always point at Russia’s actual problems and tell them to fix all and then come back.
And the thing is… Russians are not going to complain. But for a different reasons. I actually asked friends in Russia about that issue of representation of Russia in Hollywood, and they mostly laugh and say, “Americans are all idiots, what else can one expect of them?”
Well.
My issue with the pervasive stereotypes is that they divide people, they put us all in little boxes and help us dehumanize each other. We really don’t need to dehumanized each other ever, but especially right now, in this harsh and brittle political climate.
Another thing – thinking beyond stereotypes makes for better stories. Take Agent Carter. I loved the series, but the discovery that Dottie Underwood was Russian from the Black Widow program, and the whole Russian storyline was the worst for me, because it made no sense. Everyone cheered, but the thing was she was an empty doll, not a character who was supposedly trained in Russia. It was 1946. Just after WWII, which was a huge trauma for everyone in USSR, everyone was affected, everyone lost someone. What did she do? Whom did she lost? How it affected her personally? Just a little bit of meaningful personal information would have made her a more interesting character.
I hate the line that Natasha says in the Avengers “Regimes fall every day. I tend not to weep over that, I'm Russian. Or I used to be.” Because it doesn’t make any sense! In Russia regimes don’t fall everyday. She might have said as a spy, sure, but not connected to being Russian.::headdeask::
You can still ask questions!
selenak asked about most annoying to you clichés about Russian characters in Western media*
Cranberries don’t grow on trees, of course. It is an old joke in Russia – used since 19th century to mock ridiculous tales of foreigners told about Russia. Foreigners would come visit – for business, on diplomatic missions, exploring or just traveling for fun - and then wrote about what they saw. Some of it was truth, some – misunderstandings, some – parts of the whole, some outrages fantasies or whatnot. There were never accounts of cranberries (Oxycóccus) that grow on trees, but highbush cranberry is English name for (Vibúrnum ópulus), a totally different plant with red berries that do grow on trees. So it’s both truth and a hilarious image of a tired stereotype of weird mysterious Russia.
If I to study Russia by popular movies and tv series I would have learned that it’s always winter there. That it’s populated by beautiful young women who are all study in their ballet schools to be perfect spies and assassins. And who – if not killed in time - suddenly turn into old and weird and wrinkled baba yaga-like elderly women, without a missing link.
And ugly brutish men of all ages who only eat vodka and do crime.
And there are indeterminate grey masses who don’t do anything.
Stereotypes are changing with the times – it used to be all shiny princes and princess vs. unwashed masses, then just unwashed masses, then spies, than criminals, and then criminals and spies…
What annoys me most is not even that those stereotypes exist… Let’s face it: Russia does have cold winter, and criminals, and spies, and ballet, and vodka is being drunk as we speak. But there are so much more, and nobody cares. Movie after movie is being made with spy heroines - but we made her so cool! She is, like, a strong woman! And so sexy! And I am tired. There are quite a lot of Russian and former USSR emigration in USA, Canada and the rest of the world these days. They do all kind of stuff, work all kinds of jobs – there are a lot of actors and actresses with Soviet (not necessarily Russian) background, and I see them portraying Russian mobsters, criminals and spies only…
There are few exceptions and I had to dig in strange places to find them. Like take Jupiter Ascending. It’s strange to point at this movie as a good example of anything, but I am grateful that Russian emigrants in it are weird but regular folk, and Jupiter does unglamourous but regular and legal work (or are they illegal aliens? And all they do therefore illegal? They don’t do crimes as a regular job, anyway)
There are other glimpses and I find myself cheering for them. But mostly, writers are inserting Russians in story for exotic purposes and easy villains and such. It’s not that anyone is going to complain… And if they do, one can always point at Russia’s actual problems and tell them to fix all and then come back.
And the thing is… Russians are not going to complain. But for a different reasons. I actually asked friends in Russia about that issue of representation of Russia in Hollywood, and they mostly laugh and say, “Americans are all idiots, what else can one expect of them?”
Well.
My issue with the pervasive stereotypes is that they divide people, they put us all in little boxes and help us dehumanize each other. We really don’t need to dehumanized each other ever, but especially right now, in this harsh and brittle political climate.
Another thing – thinking beyond stereotypes makes for better stories. Take Agent Carter. I loved the series, but the discovery that Dottie Underwood was Russian from the Black Widow program, and the whole Russian storyline was the worst for me, because it made no sense. Everyone cheered, but the thing was she was an empty doll, not a character who was supposedly trained in Russia. It was 1946. Just after WWII, which was a huge trauma for everyone in USSR, everyone was affected, everyone lost someone. What did she do? Whom did she lost? How it affected her personally? Just a little bit of meaningful personal information would have made her a more interesting character.
I hate the line that Natasha says in the Avengers “Regimes fall every day. I tend not to weep over that, I'm Russian. Or I used to be.” Because it doesn’t make any sense! In Russia regimes don’t fall everyday. She might have said as a spy, sure, but not connected to being Russian.::headdeask::
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no subject
Date: 2020-01-07 08:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-07 09:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-08 03:10 am (UTC)* Russian Doll on Netflix - the lead is Russian.
* Peter and Illyana Rasputin aren't portrayed in the stereotypical fashion that other Russian characters are in the comics. They are in the X-men, which actually does break with stereotype for the most part -- it's why I prefer the X-men to the other comic franchises to be honest.
Mainly, you almost have to watch Russian films, and read the books to see past the stereotypes. I've had a lot of Russian friends and co-workers over the years in NY and I've asked them similar questions -- they've rec'd various Russian films that I've found here and there on video. (Don't remember the names.) And I currently live in an apartment building where at least 30% of the population only speaks Russian, so I hear the language constantly. It helps explode the stereotypes.
The problem with American cinema -- is well the Cold War. Cinema and television really began to take off in the 1950s -- which is approximately when the Cold War with the Soviet Union began. (The musical Chess sort of plays with it, and does a rather good job at that. With the nasty selfish American chess player (played on the West End by Anthony Stewart Head) and the tragic and heroic Russian chess player who is torn between his American lover and his Russian family. ) During roughly the 1950s through 1980s, until the Berlin Wall came down -- we were in fear of nuclear war with Russia and/or the Russian invasion -- and plagued with television series and films about it.
Russians were the villains up until roughly the late 1990s, when we switched to Terrorists. If they weren't the villains, they were ballet stars or gymnasts defecting.
Lots of movies about Russians defecting to the US.
I agree the stereotypes are divisive. The tendency to generalize about a culture that seems alien to our own. Instead of embracing it and seeing all the cool stuff hidden within.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-13 11:28 pm (UTC)Overall, one can find decent representation, but one has to dig deep enough. The mobsters, spies and assassins are in the forefront in the big budget movies and tv series.
I think, mostly, nobody cares enough. It's easier. But when any creators do care - it makes for much better characters and stories. I've just thought about the last season of Stranger Things. making Russians the villains of the season made total sense there - it's all planted in nostalgia and set in the heat of cold war, all great. But the character of Alexei, played by a Russian speaking actor, is a bit of caricature, but not a stereotype - and actually memorable.
The world seems so fragile, and I wish movies could help us seeing humans in each other, not the other way around.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 02:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 03:58 am (UTC)There were several large waves of Jewish immigration from USSR to US in 70-90s. They mostly speak Russian and feel connected to Russian culture, invite Russian singers and go the concerts. Very different feel.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 11:41 pm (UTC)I don't really think of Jewish as a nationality, so much as a religious ethnic group.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-13 11:32 pm (UTC)By all accounts, it's an awesome movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_7Y95snIs
Haven't watched myself yet, maybe it will be more easily available later
no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 11:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-08 05:02 am (UTC)... And then it occurred to me to think about how Canadians are portrayed in American media. Heh.
Very different from the Russians. We're not villians or spies. Mostly, we just ... don't exist. We're not sufficiently different from the Americans to bring an interesting foreign flavour to the table, so I guess there's just no point in writing us in; there are hardly any Canadian characters at all. This despite the fact that actually quite a lot of the actors are Canadian!
When Canadians are portrayed, it seems that about 80% of us are Mounties in red serge, and the other 20% of us are moose.
But also, when I thought about how Canada itself is portrayed (if it is at all), it occurred to me that the most frequently-occurring trope is that the Canadian border is a magical line in the woods that you can escape over. Once you pass it, you are safe.
So it's certainly not a negative stereotype. But it's definitely an oversimplifying one.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-13 09:55 pm (UTC)Or take Jack London Gold fever stories. I bet not many people realize that they actually happen in Canada! Who would have thought to look at maps? SO, yeah... Canada has it's share of stereotypes about itself - but most of them are inside of Canada. Outside - pretty much nice but invisible.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-10 11:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-13 09:27 pm (UTC)So, it's perfectly possible to avoid the most tired stereotypes, if there is a will to do it.