Natasha Romanoff and my problems with her
Dec. 9th, 2019 08:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
avreliaI like Natasha Romanoff as played by Scarlett Johanson in several MCU movies. She smart, capable, good with people, a good friend, can be both a loyal comrade and a leader in emergency, and, of course can kick asses and take names at the same time. I have never read any comics with her, so I have no idea about how true she is to her comics counterpart or anything.
But I do have several problems with her portrayal and her story in MCU and I am not really looking forward to her upcoming movie. I have a feeling that the writers and directors didn’t quite know what to do with her character, and only did some cool things by accident.
1) Romance is horrible. I have no idea who and how came up with the idea of Natasha/Bruce romance, but for me it’s one of the worst parts of MCU, and I blame Joss Whedon, because as a self-proclaimed feminist he should have known better.
Natasha and Bruce have no chemistry and no pull of any kind. I mean, Bruce, as palyed by Mark Ruffalo has great chemistry with Tony, with Thor and Valkyrie (both as Bruce and Hulk with those two). Natasha is great with Pepper, Hawkeye and his wife, Steve…. Even Okoye, for two minutes they share the screen. I wouldn’t mind seeing her having a polyamory family with the Bartons. But then again, she didn’t need any romance at all, she is fine just wielding a power of friendship. I mean, my favorite Natasha scenes are her with Steve in Winter Soldier.
With Bruce she is suddenly boring and sad that she cannot have children. And the whole power of lullaby and the rest.. bleargh
2) Her history. Maybe because she didn’t have an origin movie and the definite origin story in the MCU, or because her comic origin are so weird and hard to update, but I am close to tearing my hair out every time Natasha says anything about begin Russian or have that part of her family addressed. I want to like having a great Russian character in MCU, but the fact is, there is nothing Russian in Natasha that we saw.
“Regimes fall every day. I tend not to weep over that, I'm Russian. Or I used to be.”
That phrase makes no sense whatsoever. It would be the contrary, I think. Regimes don’t fall that often in Russia for her to be so blasé about it. I mean, she might be blasé about it, but not because she is Russian (ethnically or culturally), but because due to her previous line of work she helped to fall some of them. That I could buy, but it’s not what she said. I mean, Joss Whedon is famous for his dialogues, but half of stuff Natasha says in Avengers directed by him, makes little sense.
And her name is weird for Russian eye and ear. Natasha, Natalia is great, it’s one of my grandmothers’ name. But “otchestvo”, name formed out of her fathers’ one? Makes no sense. Again, sometimes Russian names look weird transcribed in other languages’s alphabets, sure. Some people have rare and unusual names, sure. But it still looks more like a random selection of letters than actual names. Unless it the Black Widow movie it starts to make perfect sense. Her last name… Romanoff. I get it, it’s a comic convention. But it suggest immigration that happened in 18-early 20th centuries, not now. Now it would be Romanova or Romanov. And it was still fine, until the Black Widow movie that has Elena Belova as a character. Then it becomes really jarring.
Basically, all that Russian part of MCU makes no sense (Agent Carter has it really bad, BTW), and I suspect it will have even less sense after the Black Widow movie.
3) Her end in the “Endgame”. Ok, it might have made sense from Natasha’s POV to try and die for her friend – because Natasha is the best friend anyone can have, but from the story perspective – it was wrong to kill of Natasha instead of Clint and even worse not to acknowledge it properly. And Yes, people die all the time for many reasons, way before we are ready to let them go, but it was not what the story was about. It was such a waste, I am still sad about stupidity of it.
But I do have several problems with her portrayal and her story in MCU and I am not really looking forward to her upcoming movie. I have a feeling that the writers and directors didn’t quite know what to do with her character, and only did some cool things by accident.
1) Romance is horrible. I have no idea who and how came up with the idea of Natasha/Bruce romance, but for me it’s one of the worst parts of MCU, and I blame Joss Whedon, because as a self-proclaimed feminist he should have known better.
Natasha and Bruce have no chemistry and no pull of any kind. I mean, Bruce, as palyed by Mark Ruffalo has great chemistry with Tony, with Thor and Valkyrie (both as Bruce and Hulk with those two). Natasha is great with Pepper, Hawkeye and his wife, Steve…. Even Okoye, for two minutes they share the screen. I wouldn’t mind seeing her having a polyamory family with the Bartons. But then again, she didn’t need any romance at all, she is fine just wielding a power of friendship. I mean, my favorite Natasha scenes are her with Steve in Winter Soldier.
With Bruce she is suddenly boring and sad that she cannot have children. And the whole power of lullaby and the rest.. bleargh
2) Her history. Maybe because she didn’t have an origin movie and the definite origin story in the MCU, or because her comic origin are so weird and hard to update, but I am close to tearing my hair out every time Natasha says anything about begin Russian or have that part of her family addressed. I want to like having a great Russian character in MCU, but the fact is, there is nothing Russian in Natasha that we saw.
“Regimes fall every day. I tend not to weep over that, I'm Russian. Or I used to be.”
That phrase makes no sense whatsoever. It would be the contrary, I think. Regimes don’t fall that often in Russia for her to be so blasé about it. I mean, she might be blasé about it, but not because she is Russian (ethnically or culturally), but because due to her previous line of work she helped to fall some of them. That I could buy, but it’s not what she said. I mean, Joss Whedon is famous for his dialogues, but half of stuff Natasha says in Avengers directed by him, makes little sense.
And her name is weird for Russian eye and ear. Natasha, Natalia is great, it’s one of my grandmothers’ name. But “otchestvo”, name formed out of her fathers’ one? Makes no sense. Again, sometimes Russian names look weird transcribed in other languages’s alphabets, sure. Some people have rare and unusual names, sure. But it still looks more like a random selection of letters than actual names. Unless it the Black Widow movie it starts to make perfect sense. Her last name… Romanoff. I get it, it’s a comic convention. But it suggest immigration that happened in 18-early 20th centuries, not now. Now it would be Romanova or Romanov. And it was still fine, until the Black Widow movie that has Elena Belova as a character. Then it becomes really jarring.
Basically, all that Russian part of MCU makes no sense (Agent Carter has it really bad, BTW), and I suspect it will have even less sense after the Black Widow movie.
3) Her end in the “Endgame”. Ok, it might have made sense from Natasha’s POV to try and die for her friend – because Natasha is the best friend anyone can have, but from the story perspective – it was wrong to kill of Natasha instead of Clint and even worse not to acknowledge it properly. And Yes, people die all the time for many reasons, way before we are ready to let them go, but it was not what the story was about. It was such a waste, I am still sad about stupidity of it.
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no subject
Date: 2019-12-11 04:06 am (UTC)The problem with Natasha Romanov is the people writing the character don't understand Russia or how Russians think. They don't know Russian. Probably haven't read or seen much from Russia. And have the American Cold War Russian stereotypes reinforced.
I lost the stereotypes after living around Russians, and working with a Russian immigrant daily, and interacting with Russians in fandom. But I don't think Whedon gets it at all. Nor do most if not all the Marvel comic writers and screen writers. Natasha is pretty much your cliche former KGB spy -- taken out of a James Bond flick.
I like her a lot, but I handwave a lot of it -- because she's a trope, and more of an Americanized trope than a Russian one. Colossus in the X-men, and Illyanna in the X-men, who are Russian are a bit better. The X-men writers are actually better with diverse characters than the MCU/Avengers writers were.
Weirdly the only movies that worked for me in her story arc are: Captain America Civil War, Captain America: Winter Solider, Avengers: Infinity War, and Avengers: End Game.
It makes sense to me that she'd die instead of Clint for the following story thread and character thread reasons:
1. Clint wanted to die because he went bad -- and as a redeemption, but that's too easy. You have to earn your redemptive arc. And he hadn't.
2. Natasha on the other hand wasn't sacrificing herself to be redeemed, but to save her family, Clint, and everything she cared for. It wasn't to redeem herself. It was for both selfish and selfless reasons. And it fit her arc, which like it or not, was about becoming less autonomous and part of a community and extended family, having connections. She's connected, so her death has weight.
Clint is disconnected at this point. And He's disconnected from the team. People would care less if he died -- hence he doesn't.
It's important when killing off characters that you kill off one that is important to the story thread, furthers the plot, furthers other characters stories, and furthers their own arc. Clint's death wouldn't have really done that and he still had more story in regards to his redemption. He'd have been like a red shirt. While Natasha was front and center, a fonding member, principal to the team, in just about every movie, and the core of the team -- who held the team together after the Snap. She had to die, to do anything would not have worked - thematically, characterwise, plotwise, etc.
3. Natasha didn't die for Clint. She died for her whole extended family -- her human family, her team, everyone. It wasn't about Clint, it was about Natasha and her arc. She had no family prior to that. Without them she was nothing -- and it showed during those five years how she'd do anything to save them and keep them together.
While if Clint died it would just be - for himself.
no subject
Date: 2019-12-11 04:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-12-13 02:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-12-13 02:31 am (UTC)I think KGB agents of Roger Moore's Bond era were less of stereotypes than Natasha. I am used to this stereotypes, and glad when they do at least some things right (I mean, Chernobyl made a pretty good effort in order to tell a good story). But still, it annoys me.
no subject
Date: 2019-12-13 03:24 am (UTC)But, it's an MCU movie -- she'll be back. She's still alive in the comic books. They killed off Clint in the comics actually. And then they brought him back again. No one stays dead in comics and superhero movies. Particularly when they fiddle with time travel and alternate universes. There's alternate universe version of Natasha still around.
This is why I don't tend to get upset when they kill off characters in superhero films. I know they'll be back. They brought back Steve Rogers in Wonder Woman, after he was killed.
think KGB agents of Roger Moore's Bond era were less of stereotypes than Natasha. I am used to this stereotypes, and glad when they do at least some things right (I mean, Chernobyl made a pretty good effort in order to tell a good story). But still, it annoys me.
I don't remember the Roger Moor era, I was thinking of the Scean Connery and Daniel Craig eras...admittedly Roger Moor didn't do much for me. I did see his films in the movie theaters...so ...
Haven't seen Chernobyl...
I'd think it would be annoying. The 1950s-1980s were pretty bad when it came to Russian stereotypes. (Also, I'm not unconvinced Marvel didn't grab the name Natashia from the Bulwinkle Cartoon. )