Should Buffy Apologize some more? (some ranting included)

[avrelia]

I wanted to share my recent annoyance with you, guys. ;)

It is not exactly recent, but it came back to life after the last discussion in fer1213' LJ. First of all, I agreed with Fer’s post absolutely, but not with several comments to it. Some commenters expressed an opinion, popular at one part of the fandom – that is, that Buffy didn’t own all bad things she did to Spike, never apologized publicly, never was properly chastised for everything she did. So, she shouldn’t be forgiven and upheld as a proper heroine, and obviously she's not deserving of the Spike’s love.

And this attitude bugs me a lot.

I generalize here – not all these sentiments and not in this exact wording were expressed in the comments to Fer’s post, but all of them exist and I encountered them here and there.

I actually get where some of it comes from the series – Buffy doesn’t say in plain English everything we wanted her to say, but…

1.How did she not own her actions?

She admits that she behaved like a monster - and not to the Holden, but to herself, which is a huge thing. (Holden is a good therapist here – making her do all the work herself)

She admits using Spike several times – to Spike. Very good of her.

2.She doesn’t tell her friends or write about her relationship with Spike in Sunnydale Herald.
Yes. But why would she?
Why would anyone? Where does this taste for the public repentance come from? Dostoevsky? (yes, that’s right, but his characters are not exactly examples of mental health.)

I think Buffy’s relationships with friends were very true to life (mine, anyway), and no matter how much she loves them some things are not for them. She told it to whom it mattered.

3.Buffy can be terse and quippy, but eloquent in expressing her feelings she is not. Especially in the later seasons. She acts instead. And her (tiring eve for me) refrain “He has a soul now!” was the inability to express just how much it means to her. I can talk more on it, but other people said it better already. But I can't imagine a long remorseful monologue from Buffy about how she was mean and cold, and I don't want to. Her actions in s7 says a lot to me.

4.Forgiveness is not given when it is deserved, but when it is needed. (s2 Angelus episode, same time same place, the whole series, basically.)

I am ranting, hence the friendslocking this entry.

I feel better already. But sometimes I just wonder what makes people to have this need to see Buffy being chastised?

Comments

[dtissagirl.livejournal.com]

ITA. Completely. Buffy's actions in S7 speak louder than any apology she could have ever made. And Spike never indicated he wanted her to apologize to him. Whatever wrong she might have done him, he forgave her for it. And she forgave him right back. :)

[superplin.livejournal.com]

::pets you::

You already know what I think about the topic, so I'll not bore you with more of it. There are lots of stories/essays/rants/sites I can't read because of this very issue, though. Sigh.

[minim_calibre]

It's a mindset I've never understood. They both realized they'd done some horrific things to each other, and that the way things had stood between them in S6 was toxic. Neither of them went in much for statements of apology, because actions speak louder than words.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I hate to drop the m word but there are many times I've thought it - internalized misogyny.

I'll admit I had a hard time connecting with Buffy in s7 but some fans have issues that clearly stem from a place outside the text.

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to figure out this Buffy stuff myself, and I've been wondering about the double-standard -- why does Buffy get blamed for so much that Angel/Spike get away with? I don't know if it's a vamp/human issue or a gender issue. Maybe it's because, since most of the fandom is female, we tend to hold Buffy to a higher standard? I've noticed that a lot of women act that way. Female solidarity can be kind of a myth -- we can be harder on each other than on men.

I agree with you that this desire to see Buffy publicly humiliated and repentant is strange and off-putting. Why do people want this? Is it because women are somehow supposed to be nurturing, and Buffy doesn't exhibit that? It's the scarlet letter all over again, with the overtones of misogyny and double standard. I think there are some fans who would have liked to have seen a Dead Man's Party-type episode at least once per season, with Buffy humiliated and being taken to task by her "righteous" friends. Count me out.

(I have to be honest and say that I actually do like that episode, by the way. I find it easy to sympathize with pretty much everyone in it. Well, with Buffy and Willow, at least. Xander can bite me.)

And her (tiring eve for me) refrain “He has a soul now!” was the inability to express just how much it means to her.

I agree. Her actions in S7 spoke volumes to me. And that's what I don't get about some of these post-series fics that have Buffy going through cycles of remorse and repentance in front of Spike. What I saw was that by the end of S7, Buffy and Spike had established a relationship with mutual trust and love. Not that they were perfect, but I think they'd managed to work through a lot of their issues, both separately and together. I saw a Buffy who had forgiven both Spike and herself. I saw a Spike who accepted and loved Buffy for who she was, warts and all. I didn't see a Spike who was nursing hidden grudges and resentments, and I didn't see that in AtS S5 either. Of course, that kind of thing can still exist and come to light later on, but it would take a lot to convince me.

What bothers me is that so many fans seem to see this as a necessary thing: Buffy has to experience exactly what Spike did in S6 -- the pain, the humiliation, the obsessive love for someone else -- in order to have any type of relationship with him. Which is complete bullshit, in my opinion, and it cheapens how much their relationship grew in S7. Since when is love about payback and revenge? Because this is what it really is -- the fans getting revenge on Buffy through Spike, and that pisses me off.

Heh. And I'm having Fic Issues again, can you tell? ;) Not so much with the fic itself, but with some of the comments to it. I'm having to sit on my hands to keep from commenting.

[ascian3.livejournal.com]

This is actually a rather sensitive issue for me - I'm not in favor of apologies for truly important offences. I ranted about this a few times long ago, but on the whole I try to avoid it, because it's really more about my issues than the text.

In general, though, I think actions speak much louder than words. Apologies are words. If you did something terribly wrong, no words will change it. If you're truly sorry - *especially* if you're truly sorry - all you can do is live differently. Make better choices.

I actually also think that there's a sense in which apologising to someone you've truly wronged puts pressure on them to forgive you. There's a sense in which that can be self-serving - done to clear the conscience of the guilty party, and that's especially bad when it's a repeat offence, or something that goes beyond forgiveness (like, for example, sexual assault.) You go on, or you don't. You part ways or you make new ones. You can't *ever* go back.

Now you've heard my issues. ;-) But, in short, I very much agree with your thoughts about Buffy.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

I had a mini discussion with someone within that post about how she likes fics in which Buffy learns. I agree with that because learning is growing. But I don't think that Buffy needs to learn how horrible she was to Spike because she already knows that. And he knows how horrible he was to her. And like we've both said, S7 was about them forgiving and TRUSTING each other, which I think was HUGE for Buffy, especially since she specifically told him in "Seeing Red" that she could never trust him enough for it to be love. Obviously, that trust is there in spades in S7, which is just another reason why I believe her when she says she loves him at the end of "Chosen".

In other words, I completely agree with you. :)

[elisi]

I ::heart:: this post! When it comes to Buffy, actions always speak louder than words. And looking at her behavior towards Spike in S7 tells me everything I need to know. (Also see icon!)