Indulging myself

[avrelia]

I wasn’t sure whether I should post it, and then I did it – filtered and all, because sometimes I need to see my thoughts written to clear them out of my brain. There were several (or one big) kerfuffles the last summer about constructive critiques vs. hate vs. being nice, and I was thinking about what I love and don’t love and why…

And sometimes my dislikes have nothing constructive in it – I just don’t like the author’s version of the Universe or the characters. And I see no good reason to write the author about it.

Ok, here it is. I strongly dislike herself_nyc’s Bittersweets series. I read all up to the “Buffy in Italy” story – I don’t remember its name precisely – and then I stopped. I realized two things: 1) I really don’t like it. 2) I don’t have to torture myself then.

Why did I read it so far? Well, it is an amazing story. I have a deep respect for the skills and craft, and I admire the style and plotting – in the abstract way. Besides, every new story is an event in fandom from the first chapter with all the revisions and discussions, and I, being a sheep, wanted to know how it is going. Plus, the sex scenes are good. ;)

Also, I quite liked Herself’s “What she deserves” and “Lovingkindness” Universe.

But I don’t like Spike and Buffy there, and I don’t like what is going on with them. It is not even all the babies… it is all the mental torture, and how they don’t change forever, and other characters are pale shadows without making sense to me. They never change. Spike is always a martyr of love; Buffy is always a broken girl who doesn’t really deserve him.
And even the Victorian story, that everyone loves and which was one of the first fics I read ever, apart from amazing period details doesn’t rub well with me.

I don’t like Herself’s Spike and Herself’s Buffy. They are not bad, but they feel utterly alien and wrong to me. Recently I understood why: they belong to high tragedy; or, since their story ends reasonably well, to classical moral drama. They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.
Now, my Spike and Buffy make fun of each other – from School hard to Chosen and beyond, more over, they make fun of themselves. They mock and tease and laugh; they could be cruel and gently, and they changed. They are still changing.

So, yeah… not much sense, but I feel better.

Comments

I completely agree

[superplin.livejournal.com]

I don’t like Herself’s Spike and Herself’s Buffy. They are not bad, but they feel utterly alien and wrong to me. Recently I understood why: they belong to high tragedy; or, since their story ends reasonably well, to classical moral drama. They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.

I have often said the same thing. I think Herself is a fantastic writer, but her stories don't include the characters I know and cherish from the show.

Of course, this is a big problem for me:
They never change. Spike is always a martyr of love; Buffy is always a broken girl who doesn’t really deserve him.

Because I absolutely could not agree less.

[swsa.livejournal.com]

every new story is an event in fandom from the first chapter with all the revisions and discussions, and I, being a sheep, wanted to know how it is going.

That's pretty much why I stuck with her. Although, I did have to stop reading her last big WIP, just because the comments in her LJ were driving me nuts. And I have actually written herself before, so none of this is exactly new.

My problem with her writing is mostly her Buffy. Like you said, she hasn't been allowed to grow at all. And it gets hard to take story after story of Spike worshipping her while she's just a constant cold, cruel, abusive bitch who doesn't deserve him. I constantly feel like the character's being punished...whether it's losing a leg, becoming a rapist, being a terrible mother, or just being shown over and over again as being shallow and insensitive. And really? Please do not have Buffy beat Spike with a prosthetic leg and expect me to take the story seriously.

Oh, and also, I can't stand Jem. The way her kindness, sweetness, affection, etc. have to be highlighted over and over again...not only is she dull, but it really does feel like a backhanded commentary on just how cold Buffy is. Not to mention the fact that she mostly just seems like a sort of psuedo-Mary Sue, just there to provide Spike with constant affection and adulation. It's weird.

They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.

You know? I'd never realized this, but you're right. I think that's a big problem I have with them as well.

[molly_may]

swsa really summed up the thing I dislike the most about the Bittersweets series. It feels like Buffy gets punished over and over again, that she has to always suffer horrible tragedies, and that on some level she deserves it because she's cold and incapable of love. Spike, on the other hand, is practically saintly in his devotion to her. That's not the way I see the characters at all. And I absolutely agree about the humor. Spike and Buffy are *funny*. That's one of the things that makes Spike a more appealing partner for Buffy than Angel ever was. Disregarding that means disregarding one of the most appealing things about the characters.

That said, I did like the Bittersweets stories up to a point, before the babies and the missing leg and before it became clear that Buffy would always be cast in the role of coldhearted bitch. I didn't read the last one at all, but I have been skimming this latest time travel story, because I like the premise. And of course, Herself is a talented writer and her skill draws me into the story. My favorite story of hers is the one set post-Chosen, "Disenchantment".

[gobi-rex.livejournal.com]

I remember starting the Bittersweet series, but I honestly don't remember it at all. Plus, I don't think I ever got to the parts you talk about.

[lynnb.livejournal.com]

It's not mean, it's a legitimate criticism, one I share myself. Herself is a good writer, but I don't think she "gets" Buffy at all. Her Buffy is unrecognizable to me. No way has she ever been that cold or remote, nor has Spike ever been that saintly. I also miss the humor, which isn't only essential to Buffy and Spike, but to Xander and Giles as well.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

Can one get whiplash from shaking their head in agreement? Because I totally agree with you, swsa, and molly_may and you have voiced every problem I have with the Bittersweets Series. :) (Which, btw, was one of the first fics I ever read and found it an incredible read - in the beginning).

I should have stopped reading when the time travel began (Buffy prostituting herself? Hell no, she would never allow that to happen I don't care how desperate she was) but, no, I kept going for awhile longer because I hoped it would improve. It didn't.

Herself lost me when Buffy lost that leg. You are so right, the story just became unrelentingly bleak. While Buffy is not perfect and screws up, the Buffy Herself writes is a cold hearted, selfish, abusive, unworthy, resentful bitch who apparently deserves to wallow in misery for the remainder of her life.

And Spike as saint? Puh-leeze. Personally, I was disgusted when Mr Perfect Father allowed himself to be beat up by Buffy in front of his daughter. What the hell does that teach a child?!

I'm actually sad I had to stop reading the series because I do believe Herself to be a very talented writer. Unfortunately, she either has a lack of understanding when it comes to these characters or is blinded to their many facets because of the narrow view she has of them. It's like she's stuck in a rut of only viewing Buffy through her worst moments in season 6.

[fer1213.livejournal.com]

I *just* had this conversation with someone in email the other day. I think Herself is a wonderful writer in the way she crafts her stories, but I also don't ever recognize the people she calls Spike, Buffy, Dawn, Xander, etc... She basically writes original characters with Buffyverse names and trappings, but none of the true characteristics of the people we saw onscreen. And I also think she wants Buffy punished again and again and again...

[skylee.livejournal.com]

I haven't read Herself's earlier stories, I only read the later ones, so I didn't get as much sense of "Buffy getting punished over and over" because I haven't read that many.

But I agree with what you said about her characterisation. The writing is good, it can make me emotional sometimes, too. But those characters are not how I see Spike and Buffy either. Or Angel.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Not mean-- not directed at her as a person at all, just a frank criticism of her writing. I'm rather certain you could have easily told her (not publicly, maybe, but told her nevertheless). And your words are echoing some of my own thoughts--

Herself is a great writer, no doubt about it; I have read everything up to Where They Take You In, with differing amounts of delight and intrigue, but, for all her writing skills, I have to agree with your findings that she uses certain repetitive patterns.

they belong to high tragedy; or, since their story ends reasonably well, to classical moral drama. They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.

Anna, this is brilliant: I had come to the same conclusion about the lack of humour, but you just add the systematic background.

Now, my Spike and Buffy make fun of each other – from School hard to Chosen and beyond, more over, they make fun of themselves. They mock and tease and laugh; they could be cruel and gently, and they changed. They are still changing.

Yes.

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

Recently I understood why: they belong to high tragedy; or, since their story ends reasonably well, to classical moral drama. They are deadly serious – in bliss and sorrow, in trouble and everyday life. Humour doesn’t exist in their universe.

Wow. That's really a good way of putting it, and it really sums up some of the issues I have with that particular series.

I though it was wonderful in the beginning, when it was set in S6. She really nailed Buffy's bleak despair and Spike's rather selfish love, and I still like to go back and read the first few sections -- up until Jem is born, and then I have to stop.

As quite a few people mentioned above, everything becomes so unbelievably bleak after that that reading is a chore rather than a pleasure. And what gets me is that Spike and Buffy stagnated in their S6 roles and pretty much stayed the same way (with minor variations) for something like the next thirty years.

And maybe it's because she kept Spike soulless, until the most recent installment -- I can buy that, actually, and the one thing I'm very glad about is that she finally gave Spike a soul and put the two of them on a more equal level. But that doesn't explain what she did with Buffy, and I can't really forgive that. Not that Buffy doesn't have her share of damage, but I hated seeing her constantly portrayed as a monster who only mistreated poor Spike. (And I know her stories only focused on the crises between them, but I would have loved seeing some of the everyday stuff that gave some evidence for why these two stayed with each other. It couldn't possibly be that bad for them all the time, right?) I can understand that she went AU from Wrecked, but the thing is that in canon Buffy went through plenty of bad stuff in the rest of S6 and S7 -- the AU, Willow going bad, etc. -- and she never turned into some kind of abusive bitch as a result. If the "real" Buffy could make it through, why not her Buffy? It hurts me to see her treated that way.

(And I have to agree with swsa in having no love at all for Jem as a character.)

Heh. I kind of feel funny saying this. I've given feedback to her most recent installment (although some of the Buffy-hate in the comments made me furious). She's an incredible writer, and I could never approach her skills in a million years, but something funny happens when I try to read her stories. I become lost in them very easily, up until the point when I try to actually picture the Spike and Buffy I know on the shows saying the dialogue she writes. And at that point there's some kind of mental block. I think she lost, or froze, the characters somewhere along the line. (I'm not even sure -- did she watch S7, or S5 of AtS? It might explain something -- some writers focus only on where they fell in love with the show.)