avrelia | Should Buffy Apologize some more? (some ranting included)

I wanted to share my recent annoyance with you, guys. ;)

It is not exactly recent, but it came back to life after the last discussion in

fer1213' LJ. First of all, I agreed with Fer’s post absolutely, but not with several comments to it. Some commenters expressed an opinion, popular at one part of the fandom – that is, that Buffy didn’t own all bad things she did to Spike, never apologized publicly, never was properly chastised for everything she did. So, she shouldn’t be forgiven and upheld as a proper heroine, and obviously she's not deserving of the Spike’s love.

And this attitude bugs me a lot.

I generalize here – not all these sentiments and not in this exact wording were expressed in the comments to Fer’s post, but all of them exist and I encountered them here and there.

I actually get where some of it comes from the series – Buffy doesn’t say in plain English everything we wanted her to say, but…

1.How did she not own her actions?

She admits that she behaved like a monster - and not to the Holden, but to herself, which is a huge thing. (Holden is a good therapist here – making her do all the work herself)

She admits using Spike several times – to Spike. Very good of her.

2.She doesn’t tell her friends or write about her relationship with Spike in Sunnydale Herald.
Yes. But why would she?
Why would anyone? Where does this taste for the public repentance come from? Dostoevsky? (yes, that’s right, but his characters are not exactly examples of mental health.)

I think Buffy’s relationships with friends were very true to life (mine, anyway), and no matter how much she loves them some things are not for them. She told it to whom it mattered.

3.Buffy can be terse and quippy, but eloquent in expressing her feelings she is not. Especially in the later seasons. She acts instead. And her (tiring eve for me) refrain “He has a soul now!” was the inability to express just how much it means to her. I can talk more on it, but other people said it better already. But I can't imagine a long remorseful monologue from Buffy about how she was mean and cold, and I don't want to. Her actions in s7 says a lot to me.

4.Forgiveness is not given when it is deserved, but when it is needed. (s2 Angelus episode, same time same place, the whole series, basically.)

I am ranting, hence the friendslocking this entry.

I feel better already. But sometimes I just wonder what makes people to have this need to see Buffy being chastised?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I absolutely buy the internalized misogyny theory. What started my initial rant was a certain story that I saw your latest comment on (and I completely agree with your assessment, btw). Buffy being besting, being subjugated, allowing herself to be submissive--that is definitely not the Buffy I ever saw onscreen. I've always believe that Spike and Buffy are equals in every way. They can both be extremely childish. They can both be hurtful, physically and through their words. And for both of them, their actions MEAN something, more than their words ever could. And they understand each other better than anyone else does.

Buffy doesn't need to apologize or clarify her actions to her friends or anyone else besides Spike--and he already knows. Did Angel prostrate himself for basically mind-raping his friends? Did Wes make a speech about how wrong he was for taking Connor? Why would they get free passes and Buffy shouldn't?

Sorry for going off here, but you've hit on something that's bothered me endlessly, but I was never confident enough to put a label on it.

By "free passes", I mean forgiveness without having to do penance.

I'm a huge fan of her writing, but there are certain themes and behaviours that keep coming up. When she's writing an AU it's easier to accept but lately I'm really not understanding the story on a basic level - like you I don't think Buffy has that much to atone for, and if she does Spike more than matches her. I think also the comments really set me off - things that get hailed as a meeting of equals seem very obviously to me a case of Buffy being put down and a way to demonstrate Spike's superiority in all things. It's disturbing and I'm very glad you said the things you did in your journal.

I think also the comments really set me off - things that get hailed as a meeting of equals seem very obviously to me a case of Buffy being put down and a way to demonstrate Spike's superiority in all things.

This is exactly the problem I'm having, and that's why I haven't been commenting over there much. I think she's an incredible writer (and the sex is very hot), and I don't want to seem like I'm picking a fight in her lj. I've seen some of the commenters over there take disagreement very personally, and I don't want to step all over their happiness for the story.

I don't see a meeting of equals either. In fact, the thing that's bothering me in the latest chapter is the literal silencing of Buffy during sex -- Spike either shushing her when she tries to talk, or literally putting his hand over her mouth until he wants her hear her. It's a little thing, but taken together with everything else it's enough to bother me. I don't recognize that Spike and Buffy.

Much agreeage! I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in my reading of the story.

You are absolutely not alone. I'm reduced to skimming her chapters (though, like a car crash, I can't look away altogether) because of the exact things salieri says. No one silences Buffy! Heh.

No one silences Buffy!

And especially Spike who *lives* to have her talk to him. It's...okay, I get that she feels there's a cool message to that and that it's a dark, edgy topic to explore...it's just that it doesn't work at all with these particular characters. Spike would never want a submissive Buffy, and he sure as hell would never want to shut her up during sex. That goes against everything we know about the character. Which is why I'm not getting why people are so in love with him here. I mean, if this is the kind of male character that does it for them, then I'm not sure how they ever became Spike fans. Although, I do get why some of them are so bitter with how the show turned out, because if this is what they wanted? They were never going to get their version of Spike onscreen.

Spike would never want a submissive Buffy, and he sure as hell would never want to shut her up during sex.

Right. Wildly out of character. And not a Spike *I* ever wanted to see.

Poor Avrelia! We're turning her journal into a fanfic discussion group.

It's...okay, I get that she feels there's a cool message to that and that it's a dark, edgy topic to explore...it's just that it doesn't work at all with these particular characters.

I'm not even sure she's seeing it as dark and edgy. Some of her reactions to comments seem to suggest that she's seeing these developments as positive which genuinely boggles my mind. Sometimes it feels like I'm reading an old skool bodice-ripper romance written as literary fiction. Essentially Buffy is fine as long as Spike is the one in control - very much not the characters, and frankly not that interesting.

Yeah, I'm coming at this one sort of blind. I stopped reading at Chapter 10 and just now read the last two chapters after reading this discussion, so I'm not real clear on what her goal is with this story. I think I've figured out though that my issues with this fic all tie back to the fact that I was happy with canon, and this feels almost like a more highbrow version of some of those "Here's how S6 would've gone if Buffy weren't such a bitch! Plz revu!!11" fics. I don't buy into the submissive Spike she's saying existed in S6. I don't buy into the Buffy who wasn't emotionally invested in S6 Spuffy that she sees. I don't buy into the idea that soulless Spike was capable of making the same choices as souled Spike. And so, of course, I'm not going to buy into a fic that corrects all these assumptions.

Hee! Don't worry, I enjoy reading this discussion much more than the fic in question. ;)

I think she's an incredibly gifted writer. No doubt about that. But the characters she's writing are in no way Spike and Buffy to me. And the comments about them being absolute equals--especially in the last two chapters of this story--are just baffling to me.

It's disturbing and I'm very glad you said the things you did in your journal.

Thanks. I appreciate that a lot.

Should Buffy Apologize some more? (some ranting included)

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